Homosexuality

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Pico

The gray area you are speaking of is a different context. There is no gray area about homosexuality. It's a sin (says it in both the new and old testament). Man was made to be with a woman, and vice versa.

What actions should be taken by the Christian community when such sins become apparent? What should be the reaction to a 'Homosexual Agenda' and what has it been? Let us say non-hetero sex is sin and go ahead and throw divorce into the mix. You're making the point that we musn't approve of such sins. Ok, so sin is bad. I'll agree in order to point out the greater sin to avoid -- which is the real topic of the opening post.

Sometime after WWII there was a change in American culture, along with a great new frequency of divorces and public revelations of other sexual rearrangements. Here in the US, the main thing that was done for a long time to help sexual sinners was to ostracize each sexual sinner from society. The idea was that terror and punishment would create a fear that would prevent sin, but after dramatic increases in the number of divorces (50%) etc., it became apparent that ostricizing did not really help things. Eventually we stopped ostracizing, and shifted back to just outlawing. As a stop-gap measure, Church pastors, priests, or small appointed councils now try to caringly pry into personal matters, like the circumstances of each person's divorce or marriage. That way they can give the 'best' advice possible and perhaps help people reform! (Gay persons are advised to have regular visits with a councelor, overseer, or discipler.) It is hoped this will 'Save' as many marriages as possible and snatch wayward souls from the fire. Does that sound like a fairly good summary? It is a good summary, but it by no means good. Managing membership, judging, prying, articulating, inspecting, illegalizing: These clumsy arrangements are by no means better than Mosaic Law, but are instead horrific expressions of pride in bureaucracy. Are we under Law or under Grace? In-between is a bad place.

[17th Angel]

I see it as they are just trying to help? They have a belife in god... And memebers/whaterever of their church/club/team/unit/society whatever... Have made a sworn oath til death do us part.. If you are in a marriage, you think it isn't right to try and stay true to one's word? Make some effort and make something you have -commited- to, to work? When I say those words this coming November 7th I mean them..... It seems marriage is treated very loosley now, that is a shame...

In respect to divorce because one partner is a gay... I hear many people say gay isn't a choice you're born like it... So, why comit to something and turn back on your word if you know full well it won't work, your not ready, your not suited... And so on. Unless somewhere down the line you have made this choice to turn gay, but, if you are born with it, Marrying someone of the opposite sex is heading for disaster I guess...

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Alex P

So, why comit to something and turn back on your word if you know full well it won't work

These are people who were told being gay isn't real, you'll grow out of it, you just need a woman... and they find out no matter how hard they try that feelings don't change. It is, of course, horribly unfair to the women. I think in the next generation this will happen much less often.

[Dream]

Yes, we were just trying to help. We were taught all about sin and that it was bad, that marriage was forever, as well as some other absolutes. I don't intend to demean people, but policies I'll fight. Loads of Christian girls are scared silly about getting married, because they think they're responsible to x-ray the guy's heart first - impossible. Its impossible to truly know someone before the fact! They feel that way because if something goes wrong in the marriage -- its them that gets shamed in society. Honestly, divorce was given for just such a reason. A divorced person shouldn't be cut off from fellowship when they need it most! That's double jeapardy! When someone in a marriage is cruel and churlish, it is perhaps time to consider divorce in order to prevent cruelty. Shame shouldn't even come into it. Common sense affirms this, and I question claims that Jesus disagreed. Did you know that in the Mosaic Law, if you slander a woman you're required to support her financially for life? Yet our church councils, which claim to work by the spirit of Grace and Truth, shame them publicly and call it justice.

Now the same people and same institutions making these same strange destructive policies want me to believe that they are rightly handling the topic of homosexuality by boycotting Disneyworld and McDonalds? Give me a break!!!!

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Alex P

In respect to divorce because one partner is a gay... I hear many people say gay isn't a choice you're born like it... So, why comit to something and turn back on your word if you know full well it won't work, your not ready, your not suited... And so on. Unless somewhere down the line you have made this choice to turn gay, but, if you are born with it, Marrying someone of the opposite sex is heading for disaster I guess...

it is a disaster. they end up marrying-having kids then divorce as one of them is cheating with the same gender because they cannot stand the opposite sex. it only happened because of living in fear of religious right wingers threats & punishments. That is the only reason I can think of because preachers & priests are busted all the time & then they say the devil made them do it.

The only problem with it being a choice is that suggests straight folks and everyone made a choice at some point to be either gay or straight and that is not true from where I am standing. It implies that everyone was born straight & then chose to be gay (this is a problem theory). Not once did I ever look at the same gender in an intimate way so it was simply not possible for me to choose to be straight or choose to be gay. I want a woman. I want my wife. It just is.


Then you have another problem with the right wingers telling people that gay people can switch back if they want & be straight. That implies that all straight people can switch to being gay at some point because after all, the gay people used to be straight. Um, that is well....kind of implies that all straight people could be gay if they choose instead of choosing to be straight.

That is a very stupid theory but is in fact what most religious extremists believe. I think it stems from phobia or hate more than reality or religion.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Bandit

it is a disaster. they end up marrying-having kids then divorce as one of them is cheating with the same gender because they cannot stand the opposite sex. it only happened because of living in fear of religious right wingers threats & punishments.

I know more than one relationship that is not a disaster. A couple of guys in their sixites and seventies now...I'm sure there were issues when it was all in the mix, but now they get along with their ex's, they count their grandchildren together, look forward to the great grandchildren, have wonderful family holidays...

so funny how we go on about sin...but not about forgiveness.

Yes I pick and choose scripture, just like the others. I pick forgiveness, others can stick with Leviticus.

I still wonder why we quote Jesus section on Divorce to lambast gays, no comment there, Pico? And have we bought that truckload of stone yet?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by wil

I know more than one relationship that is not a disaster. A couple of guys in their sixites and seventies now...I'm sure there were issues when it was all in the mix, but now they get along with their ex's, they count their grandchildren together, look forward to the great grandchildren, have wonderful family holidays...

so funny how we go on about sin...but not about forgiveness.

Yes I pick and choose scripture, just like the others. I pick forgiveness, others can stick with Leviticus.

I still wonder why we quote Jesus section on Divorce to lambast gays, no comment there, Pico? And have we bought that truckload of stone yet?

No stones here for that...I was thinking tying them all to the bumper of my truck & dragging them for miles

Oh I understand. iT is a mess at first but when the dust settles and all the feelings relax and people move forward then it gets better for everyone but when it first comes out...people are very full of vinegar & bitterness. I heard a gay persons interpretation on pauls writings & it made more sense than anything I have ever heard before about that. Then again, people make their holy writ mean whatever their religion says it means.

LevitKus works well for those who enjoy legalism, and they really do believe legalism is what their god likes...do all these material rules to prove soemthing...you know the legalism god.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by bob x

He didn't make me that way.

Welcome to what sin-cursed world is like. Only Jesus can un-do what sin has done.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Dream

What actions should be taken by the Christian community when such sins become apparent?

Hi Dream, just wanted to point out that the sin of homosexuality has not been established.

The passage that is often cited in connection with OT sexual morality is Leviticus 18:22. I looked it up on Biblos. It gave me a dozen Bible translations of the passage, none of which mention the word "sin."

Paul's writings include something about undue attachment to sexual pleasure when commenting on a historical situation. But what he said on the subject does not directly link sexual morality to salvation. He seems to have been taking stand on moral values he believed in, but not because he saw them as essential to salvation.

There is no Biblical basis for anyone taking it upon him/herself to try to change someone else's sexual orientation in order to improve their chances of being saved. There is also no basis for judging someone else sinful on account of their orientation.

It seems Christian groups are mistaken on this matter. Politicians and propagandists pander to these groups by reinforcing the notion that homosexuality is sin. They're just trying to exploit delusion for self-serving purposes. I believe this is an example of collective karma.

As a general comment: If Christians are serious about adopting OT principles, they should adopt all Jewish moral practices and traditions instead of selectively picking one out for strategic political value with a certain voting demographic.

With respect to salvation, a cursory reading of the Bible reveals that G-d only asks us to keep His commandments (which btw have nothing to say about sexual orientation) and love Him faithfully. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality being sin. However, he did have quite a bit to say about the importance of sharing the gospel of reconciliation and the value of efforts to illuminate the path for others that they may live in Spirit and in Truth.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Hi Dream, just wanted to point out that the sin of homosexuality has not been established.

The passage that is often cited in connection with OT sexual morality is Leviticus 18:22. I looked it up on Biblos. It gave me a dozen Bible translations of the passage, none of which mention the word "sin."

Paul's writings include something about undue attachment to sexual pleasure when commenting on a historical situation. But what he said on the subject does not directly link sexual morality to salvation. He seems to have been taking stand on moral values he believed in, but not because he saw them as essential to salvation.

1 Corinthians 6 (especially verse 9-10)

There is no Biblical basis for anyone taking it upon him/herself to try to change someone else's sexual orientation in order to improve their chances of being saved. There is also no basis for judging someone else sinful on account of their orientation.

Agreed.

It seems Christian groups are mistaken on this matter. Politicians and propagandists pander to these groups by reinforcing the notion that homosexuality is sin. They're just trying to exploit delusion for self-serving purposes. I believe this is an example of collective karma.

As a general comment: If Christians are serious about adopting OT principles, they should adopt all Jewish moral practices and traditions instead of selectively picking one out for strategic political value with a certain voting demographic.

Indeed, 1 Corinthians 6 speaks about the Christians taking each other to court over legal matters, rather than working things out amongst themselves. Political maneuvering is nothing new.

With respect to salvation, a cursory reading of the Bible reveals that G-d only asks us to keep His commandments (which btw have nothing to say about sexual orientation) and love Him faithfully.

What was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, then?
(Compare to 1 Timothy 1:3-11)

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality being sin.

True.

However, he did have quite a bit to say about the importance of sharing the gospel of reconciliation and the value of efforts to illuminate the path for others that they may live in Spirit and in Truth.

Repentance from and forgiveness of sins was emphasized, imo.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Pico

Welcome to what sin-cursed world is like. Only Jesus can un-do what sin has done.

Not gay, never have been, never will be, but, if you are gay.. I am trying to look at from those shoes... I am inclined and attracted to men.... You place me in say heaven/paradise earth so on so forth.... I cannot be with another man? Would I truly be happy? That is like putting me in heaven/paradise earth and saying I can only sleep with men lol..... That is going to be hell for me not paradise....

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Not gay, never have been, never will be, but, if you are gay.. I am trying to look at from those shoes... I am inclined and attracted to men.... You place me in say heaven/paradise earth so on so forth.... I cannot be with another man? Would I truly be happy? That is like putting me in heaven/paradise earth and saying I can only sleep with men lol..... That is going to be hell for me not paradise....

Look, God's main goal is not out happiness. It's our character. The real "true" happiness comes when we get to live with Him in heaven and/or the new earth. We live in a messed up world; suffering is a part of the life we chose, it's the consequence for our sin.

God did not create homosexuality. Man did. People chose it. People can choose not to act upon homosexual desires. Will it make them unhappy? I'm sure it will. But that's not God's fault, it's ours.

Say I like to get drunk. Is that God's fault I like to delve in such sin? No. It's my fault for giving in to the temptation and sinning. Will it take much self control to quit drinking? Sure will. Will in enjoy it? Most likely no. But God knows, and He tells us, that it's a much better way in the long run.

[17th Angel]

but, there are those that claim you are born in such a way... If that is the case... Then surley it isn't their fault? Man is born without sight... Is it his fault he is blind?

" God's main goal is not out (our?) happiness. It's our character."

Could you provide what you base that on for me? Please?

[wil]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

1 Corinthians 6 (especially verse 9-10)What was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, then?

Repentance from and forgiveness of sins was emphasized, imo.

This was Paul. One who persecuted Christians till he saw the light right? This is why the conjecture that Paul was gay. Some feel that was his cross to bear, his sexual orientation which he thought was so sinful was what he was ranting on about. We find similar folks in power preaching their word from thier pulpit and then getting caught in bathroom stalls.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

1 Corinthians 6 (especially verse 9-10)

Please justify Paul's use of the terms arsenokoites or malakos to designate sexual orientation.

What was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, then?

Let's look at it context. I think you'll recognize that Paul is referring to people whose lives are ruled by blind attachments. Consider for example his mention of the term "greedy people." If you like, you can take this to mean that you should take a vow of povery. That would be one interpretation. It's not mine and doesn't seem to be one most Christians are going with.