Homosexuality

[Dream]

This author suggests the Greek word {arsenokoite} probably relates to rape rather than homo sex. I don't have the training to argue either way, but he gives some examples from other Greek literary sources:

Pharsea : Going Greek

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Pico

Welcome to what sin-cursed world is like. Only Jesus can un-do what sin has done.

Love is not a curse to me. It is the profoundest blessing. I do not look to Jesus to undo blessings from my life.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Please justify Paul's use of the terms arsenokoites or malakos to designate sexual orientation.

I agree with you regarding malakos. However, arsenokoitēs is pretty straightforward:

G733 arsenokoitēs: compound word:

G730 arsēn
1) a male

G2845 koitē
1) a place for laying down, resting, sleeping in

a) a bed, couch

2) the marriage bed

a) of adultery

3) cohabitation, whether lawful or unlawful

a) sexual intercourse

I'd say that is pretty unmistakable as to the meaning. (Men 'bedding' males.) Whether it means men raping men or not deserves further investigation, imo.

Let's look at it context. I think you'll recognize that Paul is referring to people whose lives are ruled by blind attachments. Consider for example his mention of the term "greedy people." If you like, you can take this to mean that you should take a vow of povery. That would be one interpretation. It's not mine and doesn't seem to be one most Christians are going with.

So, those men "blindly attached" to having sex with men?
It is used in the same sentence as idolators, so it is possible.

Originally Posted by Dream

This author suggests the Greek word {arsenokoite} probably relates to rape rather than homo sex. I don't have the training to argue either way, but he gives some examples from other Greek literary sources:

Pharsea : Going Greek

The reference to the use of the word in the story of Zeus and Ganymede does suggest that it could mean male-on-male rape.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I agree with you regarding malakos. However, arsenokoitēs is pretty straightforward:

G733 arsenokoitēs: compound word:

G730 arsēn
1) a male

G2845 koitē
1) a place for laying down, resting, sleeping in

a) a bed, couch

2) the marriage bed

a) of adultery

3) cohabitation, whether lawful or unlawful

a) sexual intercourse

I'd say that is pretty unmistakable as to the meaning. (Men 'bedding' males.)

ok, so to your way thinking the words "male" and "bed" = "Men bedding males."

There are basic rules of exegesis, some of them as simple as assigning meanings that can be inferred from how the same word is used in another context. It would be helpful to know if the word arsenokoitēs shows up elsewhere in the Bible besides Paul's little list.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

ok, so to your way thinking the words "male" and "bed" = "Men bedding males."

How else can you translate it?

There are basic rules of exegesis, some of them as simple as assigning meanings that can be inferred from how the same word is used in another context. It would be helpful to know if the word arsenokoitēs shows up elsewhere in the Bible besides Paul's little list.

1 Tim 1:10

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Seattlegal

The reference to the use of the word in the story of Zeus and Ganymede does suggest that it could mean male-on-male rape.

"Do not steal seeds. Whoever takes for himself is accursed (to generations of generations, to the scattering of life). Do not arsenokoites, do not betray information, do not murder. Give one who has laboured his wage. Do not oppress a poor man."
[The Sibylline Oracle: 2; in Martin, 120]

"And let the murderer know that the punishment he has earned awaits him in double measure after he leaves this (world). So also the poisoner, sorcerer, robber, swindler, and arsenokoites, the thief, and all of this band..."
[The Acts of John: 36; in Martin, 121]

Yes, and that page also gave the above two quotes which may use 'arsenokoites' to refer to pimping males(perhaps also females). They include arsenokoites in two lists:

• 1. betraying information, murder, witholding wages, oppressing poor
• 2. poisoning, sorcery, robbery, swindlery, thieving

If we're going by context, then the current KJV translation of arsenokoites seems questionable. It probably relates to sexual oppression of some kind, if not pimping. Looking at the word for 'Sodomites' in the KJV also brings up the Hebrew 'Qadesh' which refers to male temple prostitutes. Young's Literal translates it as 'Whoremongers', which means pimps. Pimping is conducive to abuse, so it makes sense. The action in I Kings 22:46 reminds me of a recent news article in which the UK is making pimps illegal.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

So, those men "blindly attached" to having sex with men?

Or maybe blindly attached to sensory experiences (See also Discourse of Interpretation Great Equanimity and Insightful Meditation).

With regard to homosexuality, I'm not inclined to take either an ideological position or a "scholarly" one (I'm not a Bible scholar and I don't know Greek). I'm merely urging caution concerning what appears to be very ambiguous language and vague concepts that relate to a historical context we're not totally sure about.

It may be helpful to view Paul's ideas in light of Greco-Roman philosophy of human nature, which apparently included the belief that homosexual and heterosexual cravings originate in the same pleasure center. People who pursued homosexual experiences were not seen as particularly unusual in terms of their orientation. Rather, they were seen as unduly concerned with pleasure and hence interested in novel/diversified experiences above and beyond hetero sex.

The issue is not necessarily unnatural sexual orientation. It could be "unnatural" in the sense of being excessive.

The reference to the use of the word in the story of Zeus and Ganymede does suggest that it could mean male-on-male rape.

Maybe Paul was referring to the child prostitute trade? However, I would say that some of his concerns were around how lax early church members had become. Isn't Corinthians a letter he sent to church members vigorously chiding them and encouraging them to get their act together? The term malakos supposedly describes lack of self control or personal discipline.

It is used in the same sentence as idolators, so it is possible.

The same sentence also includes "greedy people, drunkards, (and) revilers." In other words people who live out of attachment to sensory experiences - i.e., "party animals." I think the issue is undue interest in sensory experiences and lack of self control, not sexual orientation.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dream

Yes, and that page also gave the above two quotes which may use 'arsenokoites' to refer to pimping males(perhaps also females). They include arsenokoites in two lists:

• 1. betraying information, murder, witholding wages, oppressing poor
• 2. poisoning, sorcery, robbery, swindlery, thieving

If we're going by context, then the current KJV translation of arsenokoites seems questionable. It probably relates to sexual oppression of some kind, if not pimping. Looking at the word for 'Sodomites' in the KJV also brings up the Hebrew 'Qadesh' which refers to male temple prostitutes. Young's Literal translates it as 'Whoremongers', which means pimps. Pimping is conducive to abuse, so it makes sense. The action in I Kings 22:46 reminds me of a recent news article in which the UK is making pimps illegal.

OK, I checked out some of the Septuagint translations of Hebrew verses containing the words "qadesh" and/or "qedeshah" in them.

Deuteronomy 23:17
The Septuagint is much more wordy than the Hebrew text: the words porne (G4204) and telesphoros (G5052) are associated with qedeshah, (H6948,) whereas the words porneuon (G4203) and teliskomenos (?) are associated with qadesh (H6945.)

Job 36:14
The Septuagint uses the word titrokōmenē (?) in association with the word qadesh (H6945.)

The term telesphoros means:

1) to bring to (perfection or) maturity
a) of fruits
b) of pregnant women
c) of animals bringing their young to maturity

This might suggest that teliskomenos and titrokōmenē might also refer to some sort of ritualistic "coming of age, raising to adulthood" type of connotation to it. (I would call it a ritualistic 'destruction of innocence,' however. )

Whether this has any connection to the word arsenokoitēs, I can't really say.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Seattlegal

I checked out some of the Septuagint translations of Hebrew verses containing the words "qadesh" and/or "qedeshah" in them.

Awesome! I found LXE renditions for the verses you provided:

LXE Deuteronomy 23:17 There shall not be a harlot of the daughters of Israel, and there shall not be a fornicator of the sons of Israel; there shall not be an idolatress of the daughters of Israel, and there shall not be an initiated person of the sons of Israel.

In the LXX Job 36:14 seems a lot different from Hebrew. LXE translates Job 36:14 Therefore let their soul die in youth, and their life be wounded by messengers of death. The BBE translating from the Hebrew is: "They come to their end while they are still young, their life is short like that of those who are used for sex purposes in the worship of their gods." That version is alone, however, in its translation of qadesh. The other versions I have just translate it as 'unclean', for what reason I'm not sure. A related verse not using qadesh is Leviticus 19:29 "Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, lest the land fall into harlotry and the land become full of wickedness." Sad, but parents do that sometimes.

[seattlegal]

I think I will start spelling the word "cad" with a q instead of a c, because they are the ones who enable the exploitation of the qadesh.

{Besides, I need more "q" words without a "u" in my Scrabble Dictionary. They just added "qi" to it, so maybe they just might add "qad" to it if people start spelling it that way.}

[bob x]

qadesh is from the same root q-d-sh "to keep separate; to dedicate to a particular purpose" seen in qodesh "holy". During the wanderings in the desert, the place where the Tabernacle was kept was called Qadesh Barnea "the shrine of" Barnea, same word. A qadesh was a boy dedicated to a temple-- apparently for sacred sex rituals, which the Israelites came to disapprove of.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by bob x

qadesh is from the same root q-d-sh "to keep separate; to dedicate to a particular purpose" seen in qodesh "holy". During the wanderings in the desert, the place where the Tabernacle was kept was called Qadesh Barnea "the shrine of" Barnea, same word. A qadesh was a boy dedicated to a temple-- apparently for sacred sex rituals, which the Israelites came to disapprove of.

I don't think that the Israelites are the only ones who disapprove of dedicating boys to be used for sexual purposes.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I don't think that the Israelites are the only ones who disapprove of dedicating boys to be used for sexual purposes.

Actually it appears that the sexual morality we see in Leviticus was exceptional for the times. What is unclear is whether anyone was ever punished for violating the rules. Is there a single instance in the Bible of someone being punished for homosexual conduct?

I might add that the sexual morality we see in Leviticus indicates no concern about sexual abuse or its impact. If you see the precept about lying with a male in context, I think you'll see that it's comparable to the taboo against having sex with a woman who is having her period. The entire chapter of Leviticus that is cited in support of an anti-homosexual stance today deals with cleanliness and protecting family ties. It has very little in the way of a moral/spiritual dimension.

I think it had a social control dimension because it showed disapproval toward pagan religions that had temple prostitution. From that perspective, it is but one objection among others to the worship of someone/something other than the L-rd. You'd also expect to see objections to making sacrifices. The issue is idolatry, not the moral/spiritual valence of an individual idolatrous act.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Leviticus is the source for the moral code that is cited in support of the Christian objection to gay sex. It talks about women quite a bit and at length. The first twenty out of twenty three precepts of sexual morality in Leviticus 18 focus on women. Leviticus talks about women, but not in relation to homosexuality.

It is true that Leviticus seems to be written from a hetero male point of view. Seems like if people saw homosexuality as intrinsically morally wrong, there should have been some mention of lesbian sex. Maybe something along the lines of: "Don't let your wife or female slave partake in lesbian sex because it is an abomination in the eyes of G-d, who created man and woman to be together." Or something like that.

The "oversight" would suggest that lesbian love was not an issue. This weakens the notion that the Bible supports a general anti-gay stance.

OK, I've been thinking about this. I admit that what follows contains a lot of speculation.

From what we see today, male homosexuals are the ones that will engage in sex in public--public restrooms for example. I don't think I've ever heard of a couple of lesbians having sex in the ladies rest room.

Children will emulate what they see in public, often in a mean and aggressive way, as children are apt to do. {I've recently heard about a couple of fifth grade boys performing a homosexual act on another boy at at school, on the playground, during recess, as an act of aggression/bullying/mocking. I've also heard of a boy, the same age, dying because he and his friends buried him upside down in the sand box, just like they saw on a cartoon.}

When children start pickup up homosexual acts, and use them as a bullying/mocking tactic, the practice might become quickly ingrained within the culture. We can see evidence of this from the story of Lot and the two angels at Sodom from Genesis 19:4-5

4 Before they went to bed, the men of the city of Sodom, both young and old, the whole population, surrounded the house. 5 They called out to Lot and said, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Send them out to us so we can have sex with them!"

The men, 'both young and old, the whole population" sounds like this was very much ingrained within the culture. When Lot protested, they mockingly said they would "do more harm to him than they were going to do to the two angels." (Gen 19:9)

Perhaps the reason for the prohibition against men having sex with men might be due to the culture of public sex that has come to be associated with male homosexuality, which might then become a tool of mockery and aggression? Is that what the word arsenokoitēs was about? I don't know. Perhaps.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Netti Netti

I might add that the sexual morality we see in Leviticus indicates no concern about sexual abuse or its impact.

I'd like to soften that statement a little, because I completely disagree. A couple of years ago I hunted up all the Mosaic laws that I could remember concerning women, children, and servants. I found in them a code of ethics that is very beautiful, and it opened my eyes to many of the needs of society's individuals as well as to my duties toward other human beings.

In the Law, the prevention of slander is the basis to prevent all physical abuse and all other types of abuse. Ultimately, the equality of all human beings is implied, and slander and abuse are categorized as immoral.

Some Protections and Rights for Women in the Law of Moses

• Exodus 21:7-11 Three Basic rights for brides, responsibilities for husbands
  
• Deuteronomy 24:1-4 Husbands required to fulfill duties or release wife permanently from her responsibilities with a 'Get'. This illegalizes abuse.
  
• Deuteronomy 21:16-17 Seniority of original wives preserved. A wife and her children cannot be replaced, because their inheritances cannot be transferred. An inheritance does not change due to divorce of the mother.
  
• Deuteronomy 22:15-18 New husbands may only protest legitimacy of the bride immediately after the honeymoon. Further trouble is handled through lawsuit or with a 'Get'. This is part of the protection & concern against slander. If a new husband does not complain against his bride on the day after (or very soon), then the marriage must be considered legitimate.
  
• Exodus 21:22 Respect for pregnant women & Respect for Pregnancy (an anti-abuse law)
  
• Deuteronomy 22:28-29 Lifelong responsibility towards sex partners.
  
• Deuteronomy 22:19 Slandering women illegal
  
• Leviticus 18:17-18 'Vexing' your wife on purpose illegal
  
• Deuteronomy 17:5-7 Innocent until proven guilty & two witnesses required. Protection against slander -- (there are only two people in any two person relationship, so limited opportunity for slandering the partner.)
  
• Leviticus 18:19, Deuteronomy 20:7, Deuteronomy 24:5, Isaiah 62:5 Requirements to love & rejoice over the wife, uphold honeymoon responsibilities, make provision in case of husband's death, give wife privacy as she needs it
  
• Numbers 6:2 Spiritual and therefore legal equality of women and men

There are many more laws with obvious intent to remove or lessen abuse of all kinds. The principles in the above marriage laws are evident all over the Bible, and I do not doubt for a second that pimps were seen as abusers and therefore slanderers in the eyes of the Law.