How do you pronounce... (aka - the issue of proselytising)

[QueryGuy]

If you're interested in learning about the Baha'i faith, there are a number of online audio and video clips at:

[link removed]

The original videos are a little old, so some fashions are outdated. Still, the content is very valid and applicable to the present day.

QG

[I, Brian]

Please note that this is a board for the discussion of Baha'i issues. It should not be seen as a place to specifically promote Baha'i as a faith to other members.

People are welcome to discuss their experiences, but the original post is actually a form of proselytising - I should hope that the Baha'i members are not going to try and insult my intelligence by claiming that it is not.

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

On the contrary, Baha'is are SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDEN from proselytizing!

Our only purpose with others online is to provide information (as QG was attempting to do above), and to answer questions.

What others do or don't do with this information is then strictly THEIR business, and we endeavor NEVER to tell others what they should believe!

And given how many people are completely unfamilar with the Baha'i Faith, I put it to you that posting names of informational sites is only appropriate!

After all, no salesman is going to call!

Peace,

Bruce

[I, Brian]

No, Bruce - proselytising is simply an attempt to change opinions and beliefs - specifically with regards to promoting a religion, for the sole purpose of gaining new adherents. This is precisely what is being done here. It is proselytising.

Attempts to convert doesn't require swords or threats or ranting angry priests - that's a form of negative behaviourism. Positive behaviourism, with reference to proselytising, simply requires a constructive and encouraging approach. This is what this post is about.

Posting information sites in reference to actual questions is one issue - but specifically promoting information sites for the sake of "spreading the word" is another.

The above original post is therefore inappropriate, but I am happy to discuss the issue.

[barefootgal9]

We may have some difficulty all getting on the same page here, as we Baha'is are commanded to "teach" but forbidden to "proseletyze" -- and sometimes the distinction between can be fuzzy -- your definition of "proseletyzing" at least as given above -- would seem to be the same as our "teaching."

I think probably everyone on any religion board is attempting to promote a religious idea or opinion to at least some degree -- otherwise we would only be able to discuss subjects we are indifferent about. That would be some pretty dull discussions! Perhaps the key phrase is "for the sole purpose of gaining new adherants." Does that mean you want "multiple purpose" posts?

:-o ?

Our guidance is to be sensitive to the interests of the listener -- "speak not unless you obtain a hearing" -- and to have absolute respect for the fact that God guides every soul in HIS way, not ours, and his choice is between him and God. Thus we must not try to force our beliefs on anyone -- there must be "no compulsion."

At the same time, if we are "in possession of a truth" that a person is seeking, we have an obligation to "share" it.

I think it becomes a very individual call, everyone's fuzzy line is in a slightly different place -- so I apologize for us all if we seem a bit obtuse and need your detailed direction, like "no posting outside links."

I hope I am not sounding abnoxious -- I don't mean at all to quibble -- just asking you to please bear with us as we adjust our "proseletyzation barometers" to the board standards.

[I, Brian]

It's not really an individual's call as there is required some form of guiding framework at work here, and that needs to be entered into.

As for calling it "teaching" rather than "proselytising" - sounds like a rather obtuse use of semantics. If the intention is for people to click through, and convert from a current belief to one of following the Baha'i faith, then it is indeed proselytising.

Originally Posted by barefootgal9

At the same time, if we are "in possession of a truth" that a person is seeking, we have an obligation to "share" it.

I am sure most any member present here can claim to be "in possession of a truth". The point of this place is to ensure that "truth" is given relative importance. Each one of us carries our own important personal truth - that needs respecting. Where others seek truth - they may or may not find it through the inter-faith dialogue here.

Pehaps it wouldn't be so much of an issue if the other individual faith boards were as active as the Baha'i one has recently been, as then there would be a greater context of multifaith dialogue from which to work with. For the moment, this place is still young and such posts could unbalance CR, and that is my main concern.

[9Harmony]

Dear Friends,

I agree with Barefootgal9. This can become rather fuzzy, when dealing with different definitions.

As one who has also been warned that I bordered on proselytizing I've taken a more cautious approach when participating in online discussions.

It is difficult to draw the line on where teaching ends and proselytizing begins. For the most part we are safe if we only respond to others questions, but not always (as in my case). I hoped that by having a board specifically set up for the Baha'i Faith that may alleviate that concern somewhat. We're still learning what is appropriate and what isn't. Please be patient with us.

(Brian, I may have missed it, but when looking at the Code of Conduct here, I didn't see any warning against proselytizing, you may want to add that if it isn't included.)

Please be assured that we do not want to overstep the boundaries you have set here. We will most willingly abide by your rules and do not wish to step on any toes.

As I've mentioned before it is difficult for us to contain our enthusiasm at times, but a gentle warning will assuredly pull us back to where we need to be.

We are most grateful to you for providing this forum. And do not wish to jeopardize our relationship with others here.

Thank you!

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[barefootgal9]

[QUOTE=I, Brian]"It's not really an individual's call as there is required some form of guiding framework at work here, and that needs to be entered into. "

I didn't mean to imply that it was up to the individual to decide where the line should be, but rather that every individual will guess making pot shots at the location of the line, and because everyone's line, including board moderators, is going to be in a different place, we're going to miss it!

If the intention is for people to click through, and convert from a current belief to one of following the Baha'i faith ...

"Wow! That's a lovely fantasy! ;-) " (I speculated that you didn't want to give away 'blog votes' by having links to who knows what on the boards.)

"Pehaps it wouldn't be so much of an issue if the other individual faith boards were as active as the Baha'i one has recently been, as then there would be a greater context of multifaith dialogue from which to work with."

Then it seems your biggest worry is that we eager Bahai's may threaten to monopolize the boards... that I can certainly understand and respect. God willing there will soon be many thousands of all variety of participants on the boards, cuz it really is a great site! That SHOULD happen pretty well automatically... considering how hugely outnumbered we are in the "real" world!

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

It is difficult to draw the line on where teaching ends and proselytizing begins. For the most part we are safe if we only respond to others questions, but not always (as in my case).

I agree that there can be a blurring, but ideally no one here from any faith is here to "teach" their views to others - merely discuss them. The difference is one of how the individual relates to their audience.

There's nothing wrong with the discussion of particular issues - the best discussions on the Baha'i boards have been not only where Baha'i members have been asked about specific Baha'i beliefs - but also where there has been near disagreement over small issues, as truly we see have discussion of Baha'i faith there.

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

(Brian, I may have missed it, but when looking at the Code of Conduct here, I didn't see any warning against proselytizing, you may want to add that if it isn't included.)

You are quite right - I need to make a point of adding that. It was originally written when I was uncertain of how the issue would raise itself, and wanted to deal with it as it was experienced, rather than set out too stringent a set of "rules".

After all, some people may also find a fine line between "enthusing" about their belief, and actively trying to promote it on others. I do want to be able to give people free room to enthuse, but at some point it's always going to be a tight call.

Originally Posted by barefootgal9

Then it seems your biggest worry is that we eager Bahai's may threaten to monopolize the boards... that I can certainly understand and respect.

Really, that is quite the crux of this matter. It may be off-putting to people of other faiths is they see CR as too much for one religion over any others. I have to center CR on a neutral footing.

I left this thread open, though, as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider issue from it. Speaking of which, it is probably better moved to a different board precisely because of that.

Oh - and feel free to tell Query Guy that's he is not being disciplined. He just tripped a topic I needed to finally get around to addressing.

[QueryGuy]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I agree that there can be a blurring, but ideally no one here from any faith is here to "teach" their views to others - merely discuss them. The difference is one of how the individual relates to their audience.

First of all, let me apologize and say that I wasn't seeking to convert anyone.

I agree that the purpose of this forum is only to discuss the religion, but it's becoming clear that so few people here really know anything about the Baha'i faith that I thought a few informed discussions would be nice. Though the Baha'i faith currently has its own forum (and at least I made it a point to make my post in the Baha'i forum ) there is really nowhere else on this site that actually explains what it is. I guess I've seen the "newbie" questions so often that I thought maybe I could skip them by just providing the info. So my true goal was not nearly as selfless as proselytizing--it was really just an attempt to make the discussions less redundant for myself. Which may be a little hypocritical, since I'm a rather new Baha'i myself. (Though I have been studying it for about a decade... )

Oh - and feel free to tell Query Guy that's he is not being disciplined. He just tripped a topic I needed to finally get around to addressing.

I just discovered your post now. And it's no problem, you're the administrator after all.

QG

[arthra]

Brian,

My thought is that once you've had some opportunity to construct a informational section on the Baha'i Faith under the "World Religions" category the roots of this issue probably wouldn't have been necessary.

I know we are all willing to assist in that process in any way.

- Art