How far can you take the arguement of free will? Did we have to AGREE to be born?

fourgrtkidos · 10-12-2007, 02:18 PM

This discussions would assume that free will is an accepted theory. Please feel free to defend your position if you do not believe in free will- I would love to learn about those positions, also.

If free will is a truth. Then, wouldn't we have to agree to be born?? Would a G!d create us and put us on this planet without our consent- given what many people go through in their lives. here....

I am wondering. In light of the suffering and violence that occurs on this planet and that you may or may not be born into a geographic region where "The truth" or "one right religion" is taught.

How many people would take the free will so far as to say we agree to be born. Or, can you champion free will and defend yourself if your position is that we do not agree to birth here on earth??

Danke,
Michelle

17th Angel · 10-12-2007, 02:27 PM

I think some people just wish they were smarter than they are, and seek after questions which are masked as intelligent yet reek with stupidity..... Free will is an act of a living being, hence no you were nothing before you were born, you then were created by two other humans... This is then where free will takes place.... before you are born you are nothing... and nothing doesn't have free will does it? because it consists.... of, nothing. You could choose once alive to do things... Miscarriage, die... be born normally..... eat much do not eat much easy birth hard birth cut out of your mothers stomach birth.... Choices begin once you are alive.... and end when you are dead.

That is my idea and free will opinion on free will...

Regarding birth, obviously you have no freaking say on being created..... obviously.. as you at this point are nothing and are a result of two others free will....

Dondi · 10-12-2007, 03:13 PM

Freewill implies a choice. I don't remember having a choice to be born. For that matter, I don't remember making any conscious choices until I was about two or three, probably involving whether I should do a portrait or go abstract as I fingerpainted my own feces on the wall.

ETA: My Mom was a harsh critic of my work.

wil · 10-12-2007, 03:27 PM

I believe we choose to be born...and a number of other things along the way.

Maybe some incarnations we choose our parents or other traveling companions, or maybe even the maladies we will encounter...

Maybe I knew my ex wife or her boyfriend in another life. And I wished to work on forgiveness, jealousy issues....and they said sure...after 22 years of marriage we'll give you the opportunity.

Or maybe I needed to learn humbleness and agreed to encounter bankruptcy and foreclosure this life.

Or maybe I asked an old buddy to come by and rob me at gunpoint sometime...so I could consider unconditional love.

Am I positive of any of this.... no but I am open to the possibilities.

17th Angel · 10-12-2007, 03:46 PM

Like the sperms have a free will? use a map don't use a map?

Francis king · 10-12-2007, 03:55 PM

I thought I was the only faeces finger painter round ere...

wil · 10-12-2007, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Like the sperms have a free will? use a map don't use a map?

The part of me which is eternal entered somewhere along the line...I'm not knowing where

3 days sounds appropriate...

Dondi · 10-12-2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis king

I thought I was the only faeces finger painter round ere...

Well, it is a rare form of conceptional art, reserved only for such expressionists as ourselves.

Neemai · 10-12-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Like the sperms have a free will? use a map don't use a map?

A prisoner in a cell has free-will, it's just that he doesn't get much chance to use it.

... Neemai

17th Angel · 10-12-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neemai

A prisoner in a cell has free-will, it's just that he doesn't get much chance to use it.

... Neemai

Has pleanty of chances...

Suicide
Prison Riot
Smuggle drugs
Attack another prisoner
Attempt to Escape
Plead for bail
Write letters to loved ones
Work out become a more efficent killing machine....
Put art on his cell walls to log his history in the place
Stare out the window if he has such a privlidge and dream of freedom
Could go on.... :\

AndrewX · 10-12-2007, 05:00 PM

{No no ... my undergrad degree was in Philosophy! I too, can paint with feces. Watch:}

I don't believe that we agree to our births here, but it's complicated to try and explain why.

One assumption which I do not make, is that there is a personal God who either would, or would not, offer us a choice on this matter. Instead, I believe in a Deity whose Highest Will is for us to evolve to Perfection, yet this perfection is a relative thing, not some kind of static image, chiseled in stone.

Attainment of Perfection just means that we are ready for the next stage of our evolution, which will likely include incarnations upon purely SPIRITUAL planets, wherein evil as we know it no longer exists. In conditions of such Harmony and Cooperation, it is easy to understand how Humanity must first have evolved to an almost Godlike status, yet this by no means indicates that our Intellects, our Hearts, or our Willpower have become Infinite & unlimited.

Infinity only points us (along) the Way ...

Looking in the Reverse direction, I believe that each human Soul reached status as a Reincarnating Individuality by progressing through the Animal Kingdom ~> first through the lower lifeforms, then through the herd experience (something which Humanity repeats, or recapitulates, on a slightly higher turn of the spiral) ... and finally via domestication, on one planet or another. We repeat this, as individuals, when we reach true independence and self-reliance, which eventually give way to INTER-Dependence and Group-Self-Reliance, even God-[SELF]-Reliance.

As an esotericist, what I struggle with is the Zen Question of - What was our Spiritual state of Being like, before we descended into incarnation, for the very first time?

The trick with this one, based on what I've come to believe and understand about the processes of (Spiritual and material) evolution, is that there was no Individuality, no Consciousness, no `I' even in existence, prior to my evolution through the Animal Kingdom ... much less during the Vegetable, Mineral, and pre-physical phases. So I might well say, WHAT (or `Who') was evolving?

What or whom indeed!

(From an extremely materialistic point of view, I might have some inkling; but this does us little good in terms of our day-to-day, practical awareness.)

The answer for me seems to be Yes and No, regarding the choice to be born.

In one sense, we DID agree to be `born,' in that originally, as a Spark of the Divine, it might be said that our WILL, although embryonic, was in no way different (or other) than that of the Parent Flame. God simply Initiated our Being; and we sprang into Life!

However, from THAT moment onward, and actually until we re-join, or attain Union with the Divine (which occurs in many, many stages), the answer would technically be NO. We have `Free Will,' and yet there is a limit to that Free Will. A moment's consideration will show that this theological or philosophical concept must have its boundaries (in terms of actual expression). Otherwise we would simply overthrow God (in whatever realm or realms God is supposed to exist) ... and we would run the show. What, like we haven't TRIED?

So there is a `ring-pass-not,' or a boundary, to our Free Will. Not to our free will as humans, I mean spiritually. As mortals, our abilities are really extremely limited. The only truly great potential we have must be definied in terms of SPIRIT. We either do, or do not recognize the true source of our potential, or perhaps we sense it to a degree, but hesitate to name it for what it is, and therefore only have a partial perception.

Who will dare to say, "I am (wo)man, and I am God." The one who dares, will know (with more or less accuracy) to just what extent the latter is true, and will also know that this is precisely what gives the authority to say it!

Is it upon our mortal authority that we can even speak at all? Asked another way, did we invent ourselves? As Jesus put it:

"Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?" -- Matthew 6:27

- followed by, "Consider the lilies ..."

What the theologian may not grasp, is the very Purpose of an Affirmation. It is not to make a thing so, which is not (already) so. Rather, it is assist the Soul, and thereby cooperate with the God within, that we may come one step closer to also cooperating with the God without.

So when we say, "I am the Soul, I am Light Divine," we are not saying, "I have already attained." Rather, we are affirming that which is already true, and which we are ALL in the process of attaining.

~+~+~

There! How's that for a bit of BS?

Nick the Pilot · 10-12-2007, 06:10 PM

fourgrtkidos,

This is how a great psychic explained it to me. We have choice over some things, and we do not have choice over other things. We are slowly being given more and more freedom to control our destinies. As we show we have the maturity to make good decisions on small issues, we are then allowed to make decisions on important issues.

Presently (according to my belief system), we do not have a choice whether to be born (reborn). However, the day will come when we do (when we prove we have the maturity to make such a decision ourselves).

In my opinion, this is a very fair system.

DrFree · 10-13-2007, 03:28 AM

Michelle,

I don't follow this statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourgrtkidos

If free will is a truth. Then, wouldn't we have to agree to be born??

Why? Just because we have the power to influence some things, doesn't mean we have influence over everything.

As a matter of fact, there might be nothing over which we have total control. If each of us has free will, then we each affect the future. Therefore the future is the result of all of our choices, my choice having perhaps more weight than yours for some aspects of that future, while yours have more weight on others.

But neither of our choices influenced the past prior to our births (unless we are about to be involved in a temporal loop).

Namiste.

China Cat Sunflower · 10-13-2007, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourgrtkidos

If free will is a truth. Then, wouldn't we have to agree to be born?? Would a G!d create us and put us on this planet without our consent- given what many people go through in their lives. here....

I am wondering. In light of the suffering and violence that occurs on this planet and that you may or may not be born into a geographic region where "The truth" or "one right religion" is taught.

How many people would take the free will so far as to say we agree to be born. Or, can you champion free will and defend yourself if your position is that we do not agree to birth here on earth??

Danke,
Michelle

Hi Michelle,

I think what you're asking presupposes a mature "life being", or soul if you want, which incarnates into a fetus or infant human at some point. This soul possesses a free will before it incarnates it is assumed. That would make incarnating in human form an act of free will on the part of a soul stepping in.

Genesis has God forming man's body from the dust and then infusing the vessel with his minty fresh God breath. Then, it says, man becomes a "living soul." (masculine pronouns for convention). So one could argue from within the free will camp that free will occurs with viability in an infant (fetus, whatever) as part of the natural state of man, while leaving aside or even rebutting the step-in incarnation/ reincarnation model. At least it's possible to say that having free will in the Judeo-Christian sense, based on the OT account, doesn't require the ability to choose whether or not to be born.

Chris

China Cat Sunflower · 10-13-2007, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrFree

As a matter of fact, there might be nothing over which we have total control. If each of us has free will, then we each affect the future. Therefore the future is the result of all of our choices, my choice having perhaps more weight than yours for some aspects of that future, while yours have more weight on others.

But neither of our choices influenced the past prior to our births (unless we are about to be involved in a temporal loop).

Namiste.

Hi, and welcome to CR!

I read your excellent analysis of the nature of consciousness on the Philosophy forum. I would say that the future is pre-loaded with intention, which is what gives the experience of the temporal flow of time it's smooth continuity and texture, and movie-like feel. If will is the active choosing function of human consciousness, having arisen as a necessary component of complex consciousness, then free will is the only kind of will there is.

Free will is free in the sense that it doesn't cost any extra because it comes stock on the vehicle. A steering wheel comes with the car. Free will isn't a gift from God. It isn't a special added bonus. "Thank God I have free will." equals "thank God this toaster plugs into the wall." God should be saying "thank Myself I don't have to pull this creation thingy around on a string all the time."

Chris