Human Nature: Inherently Good or Inherently Evil?

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by radarmark

...The idea of G!d creating us sinful is (I believe) unacceptable and the original blasphemy.

Adam and Eve were born with a carnal mind...ALL mankind is born with a carnal mind.

In the scriptures we have this:

"For to be carnally minded is death..." (Rom. 8:6).

to be carnally minded is death. Have we heard this before?

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Rom. 6:23).

I mentioned in an earlier post of Eve committing sins BEFORE she ate the fruit, but why was this?

"And they were both NAKED, the man and his wife, and were NOT ASHAMED." (Gen. 2:25)

The were 'NAKED' and 'NOT ASHAMED'--This was not just a physical fact, it was a SPIRITUAL REALITY. They were spiritually NAKED just as everyone else who thinks they have sufficient spirituality to live righteously by their own carnal mind:

"Because you say, I am rich and increased with goods [they owned all in the garden; it was ALL FOR THEM] and have need of NOTHING [really? Nothing? Not even knowledge of Good and Evil perhaps?. And therefore we like Laodicea...] ... and KNOW NOT that you are WRETCHED, and MISERABLE, and POOR, and BLIND, and [SPIRITUALLY] NAKED" (Rev. 3:17).

After acquiring knowledge of Good and Evil we have this:

"And the eyes of them both were OPENED, and they KNEW that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." (Gen. 3:7)

However, KNOWING one is naked and actually DOING something about it are completely different things.

[radarmark]

Quote all you want. The idea of "sin" (in its original, Hebraic meaning) is "to stray from the path by the action of breaking a divine commandment". No action, no sin, get it? We disagree about what the word "sin" means.

To be carnal is not to sin. All species reproduce (hence are carnal). No carnality, no life.

"Sin" does not equal "carnality" nor does "sin" equal "thought" nor does "sin" equal "shame".
I can think carnally and experience shame for it--but I have not sinned.

You use it your way, I shall use it mine.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by radarmark

We are all born in original blessing, not original sin. In Hebrew and Aramaic (where "Sin" came from) it is an act violating any of the divine commandments. Really it is closer to "straying off path". The idea of G!d creating us sinful is (I believe) unacceptable and the original blasphemy.

Matt 7:7-12

Jesus said:

7 “Keep asking, and it will be given to you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who searches finds, and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 What man among you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them—this is the Law and the Prophets.

Genesis 8

21 When the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, He said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, even though man’s inclination is evil from his youth. And I will never again strike down every living thing as I have done.

[radarmark]

Yes, that is the Hebraic tradition. "Sin" as "straying from the path by acting to violate one of the divine commandments". "Evil" as as "inclination from his youth". It does not say we are born in "sin" or that we are born "evil". That does not mean we will not sin or do evil, it is our free will that determines that.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by radarmark

Yes, that is the Hebraic tradition. "Sin" as "straying from the path by acting to violate one of the divine commandments". "Evil" as as "inclination from his youth". It does not say we are born in "sin" or that we are born "evil". That does not mean we will not sin or do evil, it is our free will that determines that.

Agreed.

However, we can be slaves to our evil inclinations. We can also be freed from being slaves to those inclinations, as well.

[radarmark]

Yep, we can choose not to exercise our free will, either in a single choice or by habit ("becoming evil" is a matter of habituation, I think).

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by radarmark

Yep, we can choose not to exercise our free will, either in a single choice or by habit ("becoming evil" is a matter of habituation, I think).

Yep. Fits right in with Thich Nhat Hanh equating being filled with mindfulness as being filled with the Holy Spirit.

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by radarmark

..The idea of "sin" (in its original, Hebraic meaning) is "to stray from the path by the action of breaking a divine commandment". No action, no sin, get it? We disagree about what the word "sin" means.

Exactly.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery." (Exo. 20:14).

"...thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife..." (Exo. 20:17).

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matt. 5:28).

Originally Posted by radarmark

All species reproduce (hence are carnal). No carnality, no life.

No carnality, no human life...yet there are many of us.

Originally Posted by radarmark

Yep, we can choose not to exercise our free will, either in a single choice or by habit ("becoming evil" is a matter of habituation, I think).

I asked a question in another thread, yet strangely no one answered. I'll ask it here:

Does our existence have a 100% influence on our choices?

[AndrewX]

To sin, as I have learned it, is to miss the proverbial - sometimes literal - *mark*.
Ask a true Saggitarian about the implications.

It has sometimes been pointed out that sins exist in two main categories:

• Sins of omission
• Sins of commission

Until a human being reaches Perfection, s/he continues to miss the mark [vide Ephesians 4:13, where precisely the Divinely-set standard for each human being is made plain, with direct relevance to the example of Christed Jesus].

The idea that we were somehow once perfect and have strayed from the path ... is misleading. If this is what people believe, I will challenge you as an individual to attest to what conditions were like, from your own memory of that condition.

Buddhists may wish to speak of Unconditioned Being, yet here they have overlooked the teaching of Dependent Arising. None of us began our long and circuituous Journey by standing before `God' [the idea of Whom & which we have long been developing at least since the Promethean Gift of FIRE was brought to infant Humanity] and wittingly, willingly leaving.

If the Allegory, the Parable of the Prodigal is taken literally ... we arrive at a misunderstanding of our relationship with God, and we also misconstrue the very Purpose for our coming into Individualized existence, either as a human being or as the totality of Humanity.

In context [as a tool to assist us precisely in grasping our Purpose - both individually and collectively, even as a PLANET] the allegory of the Prodigal is an excellent beginning point for emphasizing that we are, indeed, PURE and HOLY prior to our descent into Incarnation.

Still, children are not evil, or ignorant in a pejorative sense when they begin grade school. Likewise, a freshman in college is not sinful simply because s/he cannot yet pass the board exams or write & defend a dissertation.

Consider the allegory, realize that we are ALL God's Children, that no human being is born inherently sinful ... nor do we inherit some kind of tainted condition owing to the specific actions of a couple in a literal garden a few thousand years ago. The problems all arise when we take pieces of the Mythos *literally* ~ or attempt to interpret them out of context and then assemble them literally.

Thus, back to my original point: Sins can be those of OMISSION, or of COMISSION. Some like to focus on the latter, as if these are all that matter ... and then, depending on one's tradition, we must run to the confessional and blab & blab in order to relieve our Conscience & reach catharsis. This, even basic, humanistic psychology understands [if often encouraged in a secular context].

One of my favorite quotes, and a good reminder, is:

"Inaction in a deed of mercy becomes an action in a deadly sin."

In simple terms, we are our Brother's Keeper ... and until each human being on the planet comes to realize and grasp the implications of this Truth, ours will continue to be - at least to some unnecessary degree - a `planet of suffering.'

INACTION ... is NOT the solution. Except, of course, in such a clearcut case where the action itself is the *committing* of the sin!

Peace

[Gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by Azure24

I don't quite get what you mean. We are carnal and "bad" BECAUSE we are born ignorant.

We "become" carnal, but we are not born carnal. We sin (miss the mark) because we are ignorant and without knowledge. Children are pure and without fault because they have yet to experience the consequence of a misguided deed.

Children are new, an empty slate waiting to be filled by parental and environmental influence. They are not sinful, but they are without knowledge. Lack of knowledge and our misguided deeds destroy the innocence we know as children.

It is our experiences that impart the knowledge of evil (calamity). Eve was ignorant as was Adam of the severity of their choices. They were very good (as are children) before they acted in ignorance and lost the paradise they once knew. The law of cause and effect imparted the knowledge of "evil", just as the law of cause and effect imparts to us (as children) the knowledge of evil (calamity).

Adam and Eve were not "without fault"...they were very faulty, as Paul explains:

"For the creature was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." (Rom. 8:20-22)

I believe Eve committed sin not necessarily because she was deceived but because it was in her "heart".

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

Because they lacked knowledge ... Not because they were flawed or evil or bad or carnal. They were simply ignorant of the way life works, just as children are ignorant of the mechanics behind the laws that govern our lives.

Sure, they had desire but they did not have knowledge. They did not know the impact their choices would have on the rest of creation. Had they known, they may have made better choices.

Jesus did not come to make us "recapture" anything. As there was nothing to recapture in the first place.

I disagree. Adam and Eve and every child born into this world are without fault. You can't blame or place fault on a creature that doesn't know any better. There are laws that govern our existence, however. These laws ensure that there are consequences for our misguided deeds, which is the knowledge of evil/calamity.

We are in this life together as one people. Every person contributes to the whole, be it beneficial or not. It is life that gives us knowledge, it is experience, be it first hand or second. The same holds true for Adam and Eve. They may have been the first to experience sin consequence, but you can't hold them guilty as they did not know. They (we) had to learn from our experiences.

Humanity was NOT and never HAS been created in God's image. That verse in Bibles is a mistranslation. God is CREATING humanity into his image...starting with Jesus' followers first.

Sure we were (all of us). We fall from Gods grace as we become more and more independent, when we start acting on our own, when our actions start to affect others and ourselves negatively. We lose our innocence as we grow older and experience new things. We lose a very sacred part of our being as we age and make mistakes. We lose that part of us that reflects Gods image.

I know that is a BIG claim to make, but I think I can support this.

Jesus Christ is the only one created in the image of God currently at this time.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthian. 4:4).

Then his followers:

"For whom he did foreknow (Jesus' followers), he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Rom. 8:29)

and

"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him..." (Col. 3:10).

You can't prove much by quoting scripture (I'm just sayin). We are created pure, innocent, and in Gods image. We fall from Gods grace out of ignorance. We learn, hopefully become wiser for the time and then we put on the "new man", knowing the mechanics of life, sin consequence, and the laws that govern our reality. We take on the spirit (love) and are reborn as Gods children, just as Jesus was Gods son.

~GK~

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

The idea that we were somehow once perfect and have strayed from the path ... is misleading.

Not to mention contradictory.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

In context [as a tool to assist us precisely in grasping our Purpose - both individually and collectively, even as a PLANET] the allegory of the Prodigal is an excellent beginning point for emphasizing that we are, indeed, PURE and HOLY prior to our descent into Incarnation.

This is not how I see it, nor do we descent into Incarnation.

God causes all those destined from the foundation of the world (Matt. 25:34), to be chosen in Christ, that they should "fall away" (2 Thes. 2:3) from the Truth and "leave their first love" (Rev. 2:4) before they can be truly spiritually converted. Yet this is the plain declaration of Scripture.

Peter fell away:

"Jesus said unto him [Peter], Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, you shall deny me thrice [three times]" (Matt. 26:34).

All the apostles fell away:

"Then said Jesus unto them, ALL YE shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad" (Matt. 26:31).

"And they ALL forsook Him, and fled." (Mark 14:50).

Paul fell away:

"As for Saul [renamed Paul], he made havock of the church…" (Acts 8:3) [while at the very same time he was "blameless" in keeping the Law of Moses] (Phil. 3:6).

ALL the Churches in Asia fell away after being in full support of Paul’s ministry. First:

"The churches of Asia salute [greet] you…" (I Cor. 16:19).

Later near the end of Paul’s ministry:

"This you know, that ALL they which are in Asia be TURNED AWAY FROM ME…" (II Tim. 2:15).

Paul warned the Ephesian Elders about the "flock—church" falling away:

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock [the whole flock]." (Acts 20:29).

Jesus prophesied that all who will become overcomers will have first fallen away temporarily by leaving their first love:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you [the seven-in-one golden candlestick church of God that is, was, and will be] have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:4).

Jesus Himself calls this leaving of our first love, a falling away:

"Remember therefore from whence you ARE FALLEN, and REPENT…" (Rev. 2:5).

Whenever we "fall," we leave our "first love." For spiritual falling IS, LEAVING LOVE. Jesus said that when we leave our first love we are to ‘remember from whence we are FALLEN…’ Love itself has not failed us, but we have failed love, for true love is not capable of failure or falling:

"Charity [Old English for ‘love’] never fails…" (I Cor. 13:8).

In ALL cases the falling away was caused by man's presumed "Free will".

Man's presumed ability that he HIMSELF ALONE can choose God and follow the path of righteousness.

I believed this once...we ALL did/do.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

...Consider the allegory, realize that we are ALL God's Children, that no human being is born inherently sinful ...

"For ALL [all mankind] have sinned, and come [Greek: ‘fall’] short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

"MANY [not few] will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord... And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity [margin: ‘lawlessness’]" (Matt. 7:22a & 23).

"But the scripture has concluded ALL UNDER SIN…" (Gal. 3:22).

"But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED" (I Cor. 2:14).

"For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).

It all starts with God, not with us:

"We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19).

God made mankind spiritually "naked" (as explained in my previous post).

"Naked"...as in exposed...weak...subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first; he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments; he cannot please God; he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9). And therefore God's ways will justify His means. The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).

We believe we control our own destiny...we believe we are not subject to higher powers...this is the lawlessness (Matt. 7:23), (II Thes. 2:3) and the beast Revelation talks about.

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

...Children are pure and without fault because they have yet to experience the consequence of a misguided deed.

This is just your opinion?

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

It is our experiences that impart the knowledge of evil (calamity). Eve was ignorant as was Adam of the severity of their choices. They were very good (as are children) before they acted in ignorance and lost the paradise they once knew. The law of cause and effect imparted the knowledge of "evil", just as the law of cause and effect imparts to us (as children) the knowledge of evil (calamity).

Did you read my previous posts...I already proved Eve committed sins BEFORE she ate the fruit.

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Because they lacked knowledge ... Not because they were flawed or evil or bad or carnal. They were simply ignorant of the way life works, just as children are ignorant of the mechanics behind the laws that govern our lives.

Then you fail to acknowledge the parable.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING".(John 8:44)

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God;" and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE,) a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

You can't prove much by quoting scripture (I'm just sayin).

LOL. Somehow I knew you would say this.

You see, Gatekeeper if one is LYING or their assumptions are based on ERROR, inconsistencies INEVITABLY arise.

That is why NOT ONCE has ANYBODY in the entirety of this forum has EVER refuted a point I have put forward using scripture.

If these truths are false then it can be contradicted (using scripture)...and I assure you they CANNOT be contradicted.

[radarmark]

Gatekeeper, welcome back to the funhouse. Very good post, IMHO.

See, Azure, the point is even if you quoted scripture (that is looked at the original text not some translation or concortdance) it would not matter. You may think that what you consider scripture can proove anything. I do not believe that is reasonable For example, what would happen if I was in something as mundane as a trig class and I used Kings 7 to prove that pi equals three. I would fail. Suppose in the real world I used pi equals three to desin my geodesic dome. Guess what, the walls could not close.

AndrewX "The idea that we were somehow once perfect and have strayed from the path ... is misleading" so show me how a new born infant is not (we are talking spiritually not physically or mentally here. Oh, if that is not the case and it seems that at least daoism and ch'an postulate a "return" are you stating they must be flawed paths? Based on your opinion?

"If this is what people believe, I will challenge you as an individual to attest to what conditions were like, from your own memory of that condition." Memory of the condition is not the only way to prove things. How does one prove sub-atomic particles? Certainly not by direct experience of them (this is analogous to "experience of perfection"). By (what I beleive are the two remaining ways to knowledge) reasoning with logic or observing with instruments. In that case the entire corpus of the free will and sin debates, Eastern and Western, philosophical and theological, can be brought to bear to reason about it. And all the many proofs of "tabla rosa" from the psychological and neuroscientifical can be used for observation.

Your demand seems to imjply we only learn or can know from experience or memory. This is just (I beleive) not so.

[Snoopy]

Of course, internal consistency of a document does not mean or equate to truth.

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by radarmark

See, Azure, the point is even if you quoted scripture (that is looked at the original text not some translation or concortdance)...

Why do you constantly accuse me of this? I have looked at the translation/s, notice the square brackets.

Originally Posted by radarmark

You may think that what you consider scripture can proove anything. I do not believe that is reasonable For example, what would happen if I was in something as mundane as a trig class and I used Kings 7 to prove that pi equals three. I would fail. Suppose in the real world I used pi equals three to desin my geodesic dome. Guess what, the walls could not close.

The scriptures can prove anything? Where did I insist the scriptures can prove anything?

What? I believe the scriptures were inspired by God. This is concerning the Word of God not "pi equals three."

Why don't you just admit that you don't believe the scriptures.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Of course, internal consistency of a document does not mean or equate to truth.

However, we're not referring "documents" are we?