human stupidity- the curse of mankind

[flowperson]

Tao...You are right of course. What we are all dealing with these days are institutions and dogmas that have existed for a very long time in most religions, and have not yet realized the nature of what is to come. A good example are the herds of Evangelical Christians who are crowding into Israel to herald the impending second coming of the Messiah. Well maybe, but I heard a feature this morning on National Public Radio in which several of the Israelis interviewed thought and felt that the gesture was nice, but a little crazy from their standpoint.

It's going to take a lot of time to convert the image of the bearded white guy in the clouds sticking out his finger and giving the spark of life to the Adam, into a realization, which is at the roots of Judaism, into the concept of a powerful and invisible loving intelligence, which guides our choices towards life and not death, to be more suitable to our future needs. The trouble is, humans are conditioned to believe in images and abstract representations to represent that which is ineffable, sublime , and unfathomable. It's difficult to overcome 100,000 years or so of conditioned habits.

All of these concepts are in the sacred histories of most cultures. And so I still believe that we need to go back to the past to get to our futures. You don't even begin to change thousands of years of fundamentalist and orthodox beliefs overnight, but IMHO they are, as you pointed out, very incompatible with the futures that we are already entering.

As I've mentioned to Thomas several times in our discussions, I have hopes that the Catholic Church, because of its conscious choices over the years to participate in the discovery and development of basic science principles and applied technologies, would lead the way in this since they are so highly involved now with the welfare of indigenous cultures. I had a lot of hope for that to come to pass when Pope John Paul II was around. But these days it's rather more murky due to the arch conservatism of Pope Benedict. Only time will tell, and I'm afraid my friend that neither you or I will be around to witness the outcomes.

But we can still plan in our own feeble ways. Or as I like to say, "people plan, and G-d laughs". But there I go again, anthropomorphizing the ineffable and sublime.

flow....

[Ahanu]

Originally Posted by wil

revel in your stupidity francis, thank G!d for it!

That cracked me up!

. . .an unexpectedly postive approach to human stupidity

[cyberpi]

I don't think it is the possession of resources or gifts of strength, beauty, or intelligence that makes a person great... but in what is done with what a person has. If a person's goal is to be weaker, uglier, dumber, or poorer... perhaps seeking the consideration given to frailty, the innocence of inaction, the bliss of ignorance, or the charity showered on the poor,... then I imagine that person in the parable of the person who was given a talent but then burried it.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

then I imagine that person in the parable of the person who was given a talent but then burried it.

Under an ocean of arrogant superiority?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I agree with you close to 100% but do not believe one has to invoke a God, creator or any such entity for all that to be true. The 'supernatural' is only that which we cannot explain yet. I am left recently with no alternative but to believe all notions of God are nothing more than an innate need to be in control...... I see it better than man evolve so he only accepts the truth that can be proven. Religion is a distraction from truth and is as a result too dangerous to tolerate any longer. We need real truth now!!

While religions have their woas, have they done no good??

Now lets step back, lets say that in a few millenia science discovers that their is an 'affect' in the ethers, between the molecules of everything, a space, a dimension, and when one accesses that dimension with thought, the dimension morphs and changes the physicality around it. And that this is affected by all matter in total...ie status quo tends to have a strong hold, rocks be rocks, get to the core turn molten and spit back up, plants beget plants etc...but it is also affected by the thought when attached to extreme emotions of love or caring or compassion or that dying breath, that willingness to go on at all costs....those thoughts that come out with a certain impetus or certainty cause this affect to effect the physicality around it despite the common consciousness.

Now what if we called this scientific discovery G!d, and discovered that with faith and prayer/thought we set things in motion which cause miracles...but now they are no longer miracles, they are just science...but we discover that thousands of years ago folks had this same notion but utilized it with their primitive terms as the technology was not yet around to call it science...

But since we banned religion...for something we can prove....we missed out on Mother Theresas and Gandhis and the millions of others that strive to assist the world in shelters, soup lines, hospitals. Isn't that like not funding Columbus because he had no proof? Like saying no to Kennedy on a moon launch?

Can't we do both?

[Tao_Equus]

Its a good point Wil.

I believe by far the vast majority of people are good and peaceable and want only to do reasonably well in life for both themselves and their loved ones. The minority is still quite sizeable and revels in deception and greed and cruelty. But this minority could be drastically reduced if our societies were not infected by these deceptions, greeds and cruelties that have there roots deeply entwined in our theopolitical heritage. Modern Global politics is as riddled with power crazy religious nutters as it has ever been. These are our leaders, they give us leadership, they are responsible for such traits throughout our societies for it is in them they start.

It is a testament to our true natures that despite such depraved leadership we still have good in our hearts, or at least the majority do. Even culturally indoctrinated racists can usually name an exception that, because they have got to know them, defies the dehumanisation ingrained in their socio/cultural upbringing. They only meet one black or hispanic or Indian and they like them. Because the majority of people are likeable when you get to know them.

Religion above all else helps to enforce separation, segregation, distrust and hate/fear. Without it much of the matrix upon which the powerful build their empires would be missing. It would be far harder for the "taught" hate the divide and conquer sociopaths rely on to keep the masses blind to the lies the corruption and greed that is their only love. Without religion mankind would find an amazing outpouring of mutuality and love. The power hungry and greedy would have no smokescreen to hide behind.

We would have no need for Mother Theresa or Ghandi. I am sure both of them would sign up to that future if they could.

Regards

Tao

[wil]

What was the religion of Mao, Attila the Hun, Hitler, Stalin?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by wil

What was the religion of Mao, Attila the Hun, Hitler, Stalin?

Totalitarianism..

If you want more I will oblige

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Under an ocean of arrogant superiority?

A person who claims arrogance reveals their burried talent.

[fourgrtkidos]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Religion above all else helps to enforce separation, segregation, distrust and hate/fear. Without it much of the matrix upon which the powerful build their empires would be missing. It would be far harder for the "taught" hate the divide and conquer sociopaths rely on to keep the masses blind to the lies the corruption and greed that is their only love. Without religion mankind would find an amazing outpouring of mutuality and love. The power hungry and greedy would have no smokescreen to hide behind.

We would have no need for Mother Theresa or Ghandi. I am sure both of them would sign up to that future if they could.

Regards

Tao

Have to agree with you here. Organized religion has relied on the stupidity of the masses for ages in order to control and keep power.
Spirituality however is much different than belief in one religion over another.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Totalitarianism..

If you want more I will oblige

oh I do, but we may should take it to another thread...

And get back to the joys and pitfalls of stupidity.

Stupid is as stupid does....I believe that was Forrest Gump.

I still say it is part of the process...

Yes we do stupid things...and oft times repeat them over and over. But like the stubborn tree that grows in the crevice on a cliff...it is our innate, not personal, drive to survive that keeps us there....awaiting the moment to see things another way.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Without religion mankind would find an amazing outpouring of mutuality and love.

Are children born as angels, requiring no instruction?

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

The power hungry and greedy would have no smokescreen to hide behind.

Does God not see the power hungry and greedy hiding behind smokescreens?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by wil

oh I do, but we may should take it to another thread...

And get back to the joys and pitfalls of stupidity.

Stupid is as stupid does....I believe that was Forrest Gump.

I still say it is part of the process...

Yes we do stupid things...and oft times repeat them over and over. But like the stubborn tree that grows in the crevice on a cliff...it is our innate, not personal, drive to survive that keeps us there....awaiting the moment to see things another way.

I never did like Forrest Gump, never had much time for holywood feel good movies. Contrived to the point of nausea is how I saw it. You want to see a "real" feel good movie try something directed by Jean-Jacque Benneix like the brilliant movie IP5.
IP5: L'île aux pachydermes (1992)

A tree does not choose its place of growth, so it is not stupid to grow in a crack high up some cliff...but tenacious. There is stupidity that you are correct to say teaches us valuable lessons, or is just plain good fun. But also there is dangerous stupidity. Blind faith in any dogma has that potential.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Are children born as angels, requiring no instruction?

Kahlil Gibran Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let our bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Does God not see the power hungry and greedy hiding behind smokescreens?

There is no uber-human such entity. And such a statement is precisely what is wrong with religion. I dont want your myth to judge psychopaths after the fact. I want them weeded out before they take root.

Tao

[flowperson]

Tao...

Synchronicity is a wonderful thing. The Gibran passage you quoted from The Prophet is my all time favorite, although these days I might take issue with his assertion that we cannot visit our childrens' futures. My belief is that this is what is foundational to the culture wars of today.

Some see the future for our children as a dark and forbidding place and wish us all to be fearful and transmit that to our children.. Others of us see it as a well-lit and possibly healthier future set of existences. So for about twenty years now we've been fighting these wars about what the future will become. Since Gibran had his visions in the 1920's in Lebanon, I believe that he, in some respects, would approve of what is transpiring today.

Thanks Bro.

flow....