I agree that humans are really screwed up - Page 3

shadowman · 05-01-2007, 04:14 AM

so basically the system could be a lot better but we have to go along with it because it is the only choice.

17th Angel · 05-01-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattimax

But God is very different. Not only is he where you left, he is also where you are running to. Granny has nothing on God.

You never met my Grandmother....

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattimax

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Forgot to capitalize He's. Pretty important oversight.

I guess to some it could be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

so basically the system could be a lot better but we have to go along with it because it is the only choice.

Is it the only choice though? Choose life

Dondi · 05-01-2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattimax

Because He didn't create us that way. You must choose and if you choose not to choose, then that's your choice. If you choose other than Him, then that is your choice also.
But it is HIS game and HIS rules.

Smells like Rush:

"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

pattimax · 05-01-2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Smells like Rush:

"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

Now that smells good.

pattimax · 05-01-2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

so basically the system could be a lot better but we have to go along with it because it is the only choice.

Once you realize that this state of mind is only temporary, basically it will be much better.

Quahom1 · 05-02-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

If it's god's game and god's rules and he wants us with him, why not make rules that guarentee that we will be?

It's called the will to choose Shadow bud. Like the song's verse "I want you to want me..."

He won't make you, but He wants you to...

edit: part of the rules state, man's will is not to be impinged upon. I suppose that is so God does not have "puppets" for company...

shadowman · 05-03-2007, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattimax

Once you realize that this state of mind is only temporary, basically it will be much better.

how so?

shadowman · 05-03-2007, 05:00 AM

"If we are talking about a God that is creator of all, then it is God's game, and God's rules."

"It has also been said that it is not God who sends man to hell, man does of his own accord. God states over and over that He want's man to be with Him forever...if man says no, then God says "ok", and man (not God) seperates himself from the Creator."

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And God decided that it should work like this, rather than, say, some system where humans are reincarnated to give themselves multiple opportunities to choose a path that will help them in the long run. Or some system that doesn't make it much harder for some people (for example, Iranians) to choose God than other people (for example, Texans). Or some system where God isn't limited in when he can stop asking.

So if God sets the rules, and he sets them in such a way that a lot of people go to hell, then yes, he clearly does want those people to go to hell.

If I own a pitching machine, and I set it to "major league curve ball" instead of "practically T-ball," then whether or not you hit the ball is your fault, of course. But it would be disingenuous of me to pretend I had nothing to do with it.

like some guy once said, it is passive agressive behavior.

is saving from hell good? yes

is creating a universe where it is possible for millions of conscious beings go to hell good? no its not.

UNLESS OF COURSE YOU DEFINE GOOD AS WHATEVER GOD SAYS OR WANTS IN WHICH CASE WE DONT MATTER AT ALL, WHICH IS WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS SAYING ANYWAY. ONLY IN THIS KIND OF SCENARIO IS IT GOOD THAT PEOPLE GO TO HELL. WHY DO YOU GUYS LOVE THIS SO MUCH?

cyberpi · 05-03-2007, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

So if God sets the rules, and he sets them in such a way that a lot of people go to hell, then yes, he clearly does want those people to go to hell.

If I own a pitching machine, and I set it to "major league curve ball" instead of "practically T-ball," then whether or not you hit the ball is your fault, of course. But it would be disingenuous of me to pretend I had nothing to do with it.

like some guy once said, it is passive agressive behavior.

If the parents set the rules and tell their children to NOT destroy property or each other with a baseball bat, but a child goes on a rampage anyway to spite his parents because they have some control over him/her... would you claim that the parents have been passively aggressive?

Alternatively if a child demands independence from rules and parents, walks off on his/her own, makes poor uninformed choices and causes destruction... have the parents been passively aggressive?

shadowman · 05-03-2007, 06:53 PM

god creates the universe and the game that he puts humans in (reality to a christian is essentially a maze where they struggle to hope that they will get heaven when they die)

he is the controller, and his system causes humans to go to hell.

pattimax · 05-03-2007, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

"If we are talking about a God that is creator of all, then it is God's game, and God's rules."

WHY DO YOU GUYS LOVE THIS SO MUCH?

You'll see.

shadowman · 05-04-2007, 12:04 AM

I just feel like the god created in the bible doesnt really care if humans go to hell. It seems to be in his plans. Because hes god and hge could do something about it if he wanted to. He can do anything after all, and the most advanced thing of all time thinks its ok for humans to be tormented forever. thats just not right. if you could createanything, starting with omnipotence and omniscience, and you were thinking one day "I want to create other beinbgs" why would you even think about including a way for them to get tormented for ever. you have the ability to think about everything and anything, and one of the things you actually create is hell, and a way for humans, your creations, to go there. you created a reality where your creatures get tormented forever. great.

not only that, you let the devil running around trying to decieve people. why the heck are you doing that? a test? you created us, you know how we react to things. we are all confronted with the same reality and some of us will pass the test and the others will fail.

so obviously you must have made humans different because other wise they would all think alike, but they dont. so some of the ones you created will go to hell no matter what, why? did you make them that way?

people are dumb... real dumb. and they are so misguided and hopeless and they hurt each other and get themselves into ridiculous situations. but they, we are here. the people trying to struggle. and god is... invisible. he doesnt show up, he makes dumb ass humans decide their own destiny but in the end its all on faith so they might be totally wrong, and then he eternally torments whoever he feels like it after ending the world.......

it just seems insane

Quahom1 · 05-04-2007, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

I just feel like the god created in the bible doesnt really care if humans go to hell. It seems to be in his plans. Because hes god and hge could do something about it if he wanted to. He can do anything after all, and the most advanced thing of all time thinks its ok for humans to be tormented forever. thats just not right. if you could createanything, starting with omnipotence and omniscience, and you were thinking one day "I want to create other beinbgs" why would you even think about including a way for them to get tormented for ever. you have the ability to think about everything and anything, and one of the things you actually create is hell, and a way for humans, your creations, to go there. you created a reality where your creatures get tormented forever. great.

not only that, you let the devil running around trying to decieve people. why the heck are you doing that? a test? you created us, you know how we react to things. we are all confronted with the same reality and some of us will pass the test and the others will fail.

so obviously you must have made humans different because other wise they would all think alike, but they dont. so some of the ones you created will go to hell no matter what, why? did you make them that way?

people are dumb... real dumb. and they are so misguided and hopeless and they hurt each other and get themselves into ridiculous situations. but they, we are here. the people trying to struggle. and god is... invisible. he doesnt show up, he makes dumb ass humans decide their own destiny but in the end its all on faith so they might be totally wrong, and then he eternally torments whoever he feels like it after ending the world.......

it just seems insane

Trying to tell God to "fix" your broken toy?

Gotta let Him fix it "His way", because then it will stay fixed...and you'd be happy with the results.

v/r

Joshua

shadowman · 05-04-2007, 12:15 AM

but his way doesnt include fixing everyone

cyberpi · 05-04-2007, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

god creates the universe and the game that he puts humans in (reality to a christian is essentially a maze where they struggle to hope that they will get heaven when they die)

he is the controller, and his system causes humans to go to hell.

If someone is in control then they are responsible. If a parent controls a child's life making every choice and decision for them, whether in an effort to help or destroy, then they have smothered the child and are responsible for it. You are effectively saying that someone was in control of your every decision.

The person who controls information or lies is responsible. The person who commands decision making is responsible. The person who controls resources is responsible. There is a portion in all things that a person has had within their control and it is that portion that they are responsible for. There is no excuse... if a person has never had a free will to control some things then they've never lived. If they've lived then there is a portion that God has NOT been in control of.

FAITH is a matter of joint control. Think of a person who is faithful and that you can have Faith in. The person who is unfaithful took control and thus took the responsibility.

I speak somewhat as an engineer who has studied modern control theory... I know the science. Take as a system the transportation system. The stop lights, the stop signs, the location of the roads, the speed limit signs, the people who designed and built the cars... ALL do have an influence on the way people drive. However, when someone purposely runs over someone and kills them... who do you think is responsible? The people who made the system? The people who designed and built the car? God? Is it all God's fault the way someone drives their car?