I agree that humans are really screwed up - Page 4

Quahom1 · 05-04-2007, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

but his way doesnt include fixing everyone

You're right Shadow dude. Only those that "want" their "toy" fixed...

eh, "toy" being, their "life"...

Quahom1 · 05-04-2007, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

god creates the universe and the game that he puts humans in (reality to a christian is essentially a maze where they struggle to hope that they will get heaven when they die)

he is the controller, and his system causes humans to go to hell.

LOL, no Shadow dude! He stands in front of the maze that is life and says to ANYONE who is willing to listen..."follow me, and I'll get you through". The "maze" as you call it, wasn't created by God...it was created/is created, by us...

Quahom1 · 05-04-2007, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

If the parents set the rules and tell their children to NOT destroy property or each other with a baseball bat, but a child goes on a rampage anyway to spite his parents because they have some control over him/her... would you claim that the parents have been passively aggressive?

Alternatively if a child demands independence from rules and parents, walks off on his/her own, makes poor uninformed choices and causes destruction... have the parents been passively aggressive?

who cares? they've been negligent in their duties as a parent...they should have kicked his butt when he desperately needed it...

Don't Cyberpi...I raised two rable rowsers, and they are fine upstanding citizens serving YOU, in uniform (and no, I didn't ask them to take the oath...they did it on their own, much to my shock and suprise).

But while children, they had to toe the line, else there would have been hell to pay, for everyone else...

edit: infact, you'd be pleased I think, to know one is a Medic, combat medic. the other is a peace keeper...

shadowman · 05-04-2007, 03:28 AM

Since when did humans design roads and traffic systems to let people have a choice over whether they will break the law or not. If those traffic engineers had the technology all cars would be automatically controlled and the only choice people would have is where they want the car to go.

If the universe is engineered to accomplish a task, like a traffic system, then there are design goals. And the better the engineer the more likely the system will meet those goals.

If the Christian system of reality is designed by god, then the design goal is to send people to hell.

Quahom1 · 05-04-2007, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

Since when did humans design roads and traffic systems to let people have a choice over whether they will break the law or not. If those traffic engineers had the technology all cars would be automatically controlled and the only choice people would have is where they want the car to go.

If the universe is engineered to accomplish a task, like a traffic system, then there are design goals. And the better the engineer the more likely the system will meet those goals.

If the Christian system of reality is designed by god, then the design goal is to send people to hell.

Lol, eh, 1913, Detroit, Michigan

In effect now...it is called "public transportation".

So, God is an "engineer" who's design is flawed...

You really hate God, don't you? You can't even grant Him His creation in all it's splendor (something you can't possibly create yourself).

Yep, you got it. God erred. He made you, me and everyone else, might as well flood us all to hell...

oh, wait! Been done once before! And there was a promise...no more floods to wipe out man. (no more attempts to wipe out man was the promise in reality).

So...got a better idea?

shadowman · 05-04-2007, 03:58 AM

of course I got a better idea. just give me omnipotence and omniscience and no one will ever suffer again.

you could have a better idea too if you put your imagination to it.

Im not saying its a flawed design. by definition, whatever god does is perfect right? its flawed only if you consider a design that involves people going to hell as not good, then its flawed. if you think hell is fine, and think that a creator "might as well send everyone to hell" then I guess the design is perfect. if you have great power you have great responsibility, of course this comes from my puny human moral code, and I am way fallen, so what do I know. maybe its right that: "He witheth power shall doeth as he pleaseth and no one shall questioneth his might" this god of yours reminds me of a few leadership type people in history...

17th Angel · 05-21-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

God erred.

oh, wait! Been done once before! And there was a promise...no more floods to wipe out man. (no more attempts to wipe out man was the promise in reality).

*contently sighs*

Anyway... A promise to not attempt to wipe out man? Am I reading this right? What does a war do? Attempt to wipe out nations..... What did Hitler attempt to do to the jews? Oh erradicate them... Earthquakes... Hurricanes, tsunami's.... And so on and so forth... Black Plague..... I have seen quite a few attempts at wiping out mankind... ;/ Doesn't seem a very strong held promise.

Dondi · 05-21-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

of course I got a better idea. just give me omnipotence and omniscience and no one will ever suffer again.

And how do you supposed you are going to accomplish this without violating anyone's freewill? You propose to make an end of suffering, you are going to have to change people, for we seem to be pretty good at causing own own suffering. How do you propose do this?

Dondi · 05-21-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

*contently sighs*

Anyway... A promise to not attempt to wipe out man? Am I reading this right? What does a war do? Attempt to wipe out nations..... What did Hitler attempt to do to the jews? Oh erradicate them... Earthquakes... Hurricanes, tsunami's.... And so on and so forth... Black Plague..... I have seen quite a few attempts at wiping out mankind... ;/ Doesn't seem a very strong held promise.

A miracle that God hasn't completely wiped us all out by now. But then, as Al Jolsen said, "You've ain't seen nuttin' yet!" Cha-cha-cha.

shadowman · 05-22-2007, 04:56 AM

To stop suffering without violating free will? Ill ask the current god what he is planning on doing when the kingdom finally comes! Im sure if I had omniscience and omnipotence it could be done, since by definition, if someone had those things, they could do anything... duh!

right?

Dondi · 05-22-2007, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

To stop suffering without violating free will? Ill ask the current god what he is planning on doing when the kingdom finally comes! Im sure if I had omniscience and omnipotence it could be done, since by definition, if someone had those things, they could do anything... duh!

right?

If you made a creation with the ability to exercise freewill, you are basically yielding your omnipotence in favor of the human experiment. You can drag a mouse by the tail through the maze, but it wouldn't accomplish what you wanted, would it? What is needed is to figure out how to get the mouse to navigate through the maze on it's own.

17th Angel · 05-22-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

If you made a creation with the ability to exercise freewill, you are basically yielding your omnipotence in favor of the human experiment.

Such as a child.

Dondi · 05-22-2007, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Such as a child.

Exactly!

shadowman · 05-22-2007, 06:50 PM

freewill seems kind of crappy. whats so great about being free to do bad things. I ve done a lot of bad things and wish I never had the ability to inflict pain on the world and the people in it.

Dondi · 05-22-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

freewill seems kind of crappy. whats so great about being free to do bad things. I ve done a lot of bad things and wish I never had the ability to inflict pain on the world and the people in it.

It would be worse to be a bot.