I am Judas

[Prober]

Originally Posted by pattimax

But I just can't seem to shake this child-like faith.

Amen!

"...Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by wil

They also identify other scripture which they feel imply that Jesus appointed Judas to the task. I had not read any of this before, all interesting contemplation. Especially Qabala discussion which seems accepting of Jesus as the second in the Trinity...have not read any of that before from a Jewish perspective either.

I wonder if the Qabala had anything to do with the gnostic gospel of Judas?

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Prober

I identify more with David. He did stupid things and then realized it and humbly and honestly repented and G-d called him a man after his own heart. I feel like that. I do things that I really didn't want to do and then I'm sorry.

I would want G-d to call me a man after his own heart.

OOooo! I like that.

[wil]

Originally Posted by pattimax

I wonder if the Qabala had anything to do with the gnostic gospel of Judas?

In the article it mentioned that the info predates the translation of that discovery. However in reading the whole thing, I shouldn't have posted it here. I read a lot of material out of interest, and I don't know how much of it actually relates to accepted Qabala teachings...but it stretches the limitations of even this heretic.

[pattimax]

wow!

[flowperson]

Sometimes names are confusing and become confused over the period of a couple of thousand years.

The Judas of the NT stories regarding Jesus' betrayal demonstrates humanity's inbred tendencies for betrayal as you have all so aptly pointed out. It is also interesting to note that in his book, James The Brother Of Jesus, Robert Eisenmann discloses that the "Iscariot" portion of Judas' name was actually "scariote" in the Aramaic, the language of Jesus, which means assassin. We are indeed all sinners.

It , the tendency towards betrayal, is in each one of us and it cannot be escaped. And one could argue that this started with the betrayal of Adam and Eve when they were ejected from the garden into this world of suffering and death for betraying G-d's trust by thoughtlessly consuming the knowledge of good and evil, and ignoring their stewardship over the garden paradise G-d created along with its flora and fauna. I view these stories as a metaphor for what's going on in nature and science right now.

Then there is Judas Thomas who was known as the "doubter" in the Bible stories. He was supposed to be one of Jesus' two "real brothers", the other being James who founded the Jerusalem Church. And yet scholarly research has shown that this apostle Judas actually journeyed to Syria and to Kerala in India after the dispersal of the apostles to found orthodox Christian Churches that can trace their lineage and history back to 65 ad.

Judas Thomas also performed miracles, healings, and the casting out of demonic beings. For all of that he was run through with spears by a mob on a hill outside of Madras. You might be interested to know that the province of Kerala these days has the highest literacy rate among its citizens of any province in India. I've become friends with some of these St. Thomas Christians and they are wonderful people.

Like I said, when one is examining the commonality that we all share as humans, let alone as Christians, things can get very confusing sometimes. While I am not a literalist, as you all well know, I find comfort in the fact that someone did take the time to try and make these things clear to us in the stories and histories that were written about Judas in order to tie us to his/their humanity as it existed 2,000 years ago, and even today.

flow....

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by flowperson

You might be interested to know that the province of Kerala these days has the highest literacy rate among its citizens of any province in India.

Very, very interesting.

[flowperson]

Hi Pattimax...Yeah...you might think it was something in the water...or even their genes...or both. And another thing, a couple of years ago there were repeated "red rains" in the province. The color of the rain was imparted by biological organisms that have yet to be identified, at least publicly. Brings new meaning to Peter Gabriel's song of that name, huh ?

flow....

[pattimax]

Ya think? Water and genes...hmmm.

Red rain?(I will not get in over my head, I will not get in over my head, I will not get in over my head)

[pfw]

Without Judas' 'betrayal' (or something similar) Christs mission to die for all the worlds sins would have failed. If God punishes him for this doesn't that imply a massive double standard? God needed Judas to do what he did so it was the right thing to do surely? just a thought.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by pfw

Without Judas' 'betrayal' (or something similar) Christs mission to die for all the worlds sins would have failed. If God punishes him for this doesn't that imply a massive double standard? God needed Judas to do what he did so it was the right thing to do surely? just a thought.

I doubt it. Peter was well on his way to screwing things up royally (by sword and denial). Only the strongest of heart came near the dying Jesus (and most were women). Joseph who is rarely spoken of thought to secret Jesus' away from the Romans.

Each one of these "betrayals" and abandoments, compounded in the ultimate demise of Jesus. Judas' lack of betrayal may simply have put the death of Jesus off by a few days (or a week), because the Sanhedrin would have had to look for Him, awhile longer.

Judas, on the other hand did not (in my opinion), consider himself a traitor. He simply attempted to force Jesus' hand at leading a revolution against the Roman occupiers. He was very wrong of course. But that was due to his short sightedness, impatiences and selfishness (something we are all guilty of).

Indeed, how many of us can say we haven't demanded that God do things "our way"? Hmm? Or worse yet, the opposite. How many of us can say we haven't taken matters into our own hands, "for the good of God?" (raises hand).

Like we know what is better than God does? Like we can fix what God can't?

Flip sides of the same coin, but just as dumb and damaging...

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I doubt it. Peter was well on his way to screwing things up royally (by sword and denial). Only the strongest of heart came near the dying Jesus (and most were women).

Peter made mistakes, after all Satan "sifted him like wheat." Even before that, his thinking was in line with the world's (he couldn't walk on water when he took his eyes off Jesus, he told Jesus never be crucified...) He also was looking for a military leader, but I think he was like an over enthusiastic kid and his heart was pure. Don't you think Jesus knew this when he chose the disciples?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Peter made mistakes, after all Satan "sifted him like wheat." Even before that, his thinking was in line with the world's (he couldn't walk on water when he took his eyes off Jesus, he told Jesus never be crucified...) He also was looking for a military leader, but I think he was like an over enthusiastic kid and his heart was pure. Don't you think Jesus knew this when he chose the disciples?

Truth be known, I believe there are alot of things we do not know that went on during the life of Jesus, and after His death and ressurection. I believe many bits of information were deliberately left out of what officially became the cannonical books of the bible, both in the fourth century and again in the 16th. Even relatively modern versions of the bible differ enough to cause questioning about what is the truth.

Even though I think the base core of the truth is carried in the bible, there are voids and open ended situations that are tough to explain, so to that end I try to keep an open mind about the possibilities.

Even Judas' death is a conflict of history between Gospels and Acts (and I don't even want to go down the slippery slope of the alleged Gospel of Judas himself, at this junction in time).

v/r

Joshua