I Am That I Am

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Etu Malku

Let's get a few things straight here first.
Moses left twice, the firsdt time because he was wanted for murder, he went to Midian, where he became a member of the household of Jethro, the priest of Midian.

The second time, as the organizer and leader of the mass Exodus "Children of Israel". Although He never put foot on what is considered the Holy Land,

No one chased him out.

Please, read Exodus 2:15. When Pharaoh heard of the affair about the Egyptian who had been killed by Moses, he sought after him to put him to death. That's when Moses was chased out of Egypt and fled to Midian. Are now things straight enough for you? Perhaps the problem is that I should have quoted Exodus 2:15 in the thread. But I hope everything is clear now.
Ben

[Lunitik]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

Adonai is not God of the dead but of the living. When the Q'ohelet says that in death the spirit goes back to God, this is an embelishment of the breath of life that is taken back from the body, which had made of man a living soul. (Gen. 2:7; Eccl. 12:7) Unless you mean by merging with God after death, the eternity of death in man as compared with the eternity of life in God.
Ben

You simply do not know the life which comes from dying to the false, it is not meant that you wait until physical death. You must work to kill the ego that you can live in God even while walking this earth.

[Lunitik]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

We, in Judaism, are not of the kind that "If my belly you feed I'll adopt your creed." I mean, we do not serve God with an eye in reward or fear of punishment in the afterlife. This life is the only thing we have; and we live it to serve God Who has given it to us.
Ben

I might ask you to look deeper into your mystic streams and see what it says about this - is it genuine that there is a giver and receiver? From what I have seen of the Kaballah, it is not supportable ultimately at all, it seems it teaches exactly what all other lines do: all is one.

[Lunitik]

The deeper you go into any stream, the more you find each is exactly the same, and how can it be at all otherwise? There is only one God, and all manifests His essence, the religions are merely a particular groups path leading the way home.

As man is becoming more and more close due to the ease of communications between the different groups in todays world, we need to be looking around and benefiting from all we encounter seeing each works to the same end. It is only ego that insists one path is greater than another, it is only identification which causes any to cling to particular figures.

We must turn to God, to the experience of Truth, and direct our loyalties entirely to that, then all who point towards it will be equally respected by everyone.

The old ways are gradually disappearing in the world today anyway, it is only a question of whether you want to embrace that. All around the world, people are no more looking at particular figures, we call this commonly the "New Age Movement" but really it is a new openness towards every tradition, a lack of clinging to anything without proof. Whether you accept it or not, this will only become bigger and bigger, it is simply that this movement offers experiences, belief cannot match it.

Religion as a way to divide peoples must die, for it means 'to re-bind', how can it possibly survive as a way to unbind? I am very happy that across all nations, this is being seen.

[Etu Malku]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

Please, read Exodus 2:15. When Pharaoh heard of the affair about the Egyptian who had been killed by Moses, he sought after him to put him to death. That's when Moses was chased out of Egypt and fled to Midian. Are now things straight enough for you? Perhaps the problem is that I should have quoted Exodus 2:15 in the thread. But I hope everything is clear now.
Ben

You can quote all you want from scripture, I'll rely on historically evidenced books written by historical scholars.

Moses was wanted for murder, he fled. Comprehend?

[radarmark]

Modern textual and source biblical criticism are on the luciferian's side, in this case.

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Lunitik

You simply do not know the life which comes from dying to the false, it is not meant that you wait until physical death. You must work to kill the ego that you can live in God even while walking this earth.

This, according to Christian fundamentalism, is what they mean by being born again. And according to Judaism is to exercise constrain of one's emotions.
Ben

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Lunitik

I might ask you to look deeper into your mystic streams and see what it says about this - is it genuine that there is a giver and receiver? From what I have seen of the Kaballah, it is not supportable ultimately at all, it seems it teaches exactly what all other lines do: all is one.

Oh! My mystic streams! Interesting that I had the very same thought about what you are trying to convey: Mysticism. Besides, I have no participation with Kaballah.
Ben

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Lunitik

The deeper you go into any stream, the more you find each is exactly the same, and how can it be at all otherwise? There is only one God, and all manifests His essence, the religions are merely a particular groups path leading the way home.

As man is becoming more and more close due to the ease of communications between the different groups in todays world, we need to be looking around and benefiting from all we encounter seeing each works to the same end. It is only ego that insists one path is greater than another, it is only identification which causes any to cling to particular figures.

We must turn to God, to the experience of Truth, and direct our loyalties entirely to that, then all who point towards it will be equally respected by everyone.

The old ways are gradually disappearing in the world today anyway, it is only a question of whether you want to embrace that. All around the world, people are no more looking at particular figures, we call this commonly the "New Age Movement" but really it is a new openness towards every tradition, a lack of clinging to anything without proof. Whether you accept it or not, this will only become bigger and bigger, it is simply that this movement offers experiences, belief cannot match it.

Religion as a way to divide peoples must die, for it means 'to re-bind', how can it possibly survive as a way to unbind? I am very happy that across all nations, this is being seen.

I do agree with you here that religion as a way to divide peoples must die. In the same breath, I would like to let you know that Judaism is more of a way of life than a religion per se. At least, that's as far as I am concerned.
Ben

[Lunitik]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

This, according to Christian fundamentalism, is what they mean by being born again. And according to Judaism is to exercise constrain of one's emotions.
Ben

It is what is intended, yet most seem to believe they are born again simply by believing in Jesus, there is a lack of any particular effort towards this end because they think just an acceptance is enough it seems. In this I can certainly commend the Kabalists, and yet still I feel they are misled.

The point is not constraint, it is to not become identified with them, but trying to fight with them you will encounter all sorts of problems. There are many practices which are required of the Jewish mystic, but fundamentally they miss the inquiry "who is the practitioner?". Of course, there are many examples of these practices being effective, but it seems to me in both cases that it is almost by accident that they work...

If a farmer plants one hundred trees, and only two deliver fruit, can we say anything positive about the gardener? It seems the trees have come to provide proof almost despite the gardener, not because of.

I do not wish to offend, but it is my desire to bring the traditions closer together that they can learn from each other. For me, the success rates show plenty of room for improvement, and given a world which is much smaller, there is no reason why we cannot collaborate collectively on bettering the situation. I do not see how maintaining ideas of separation and clinging to the old ways can help in bringing people to Self Realization. For me, it seems this is merely a stubbornness to maintain a particular barrier which really has no worth.

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Etu Malku

You can quote all you want from scripture, I'll rely on historically evidenced books written by historical scholars.

Moses was wanted for murder, he fled. Comprehend?

Have you ever heard that History is usually written based on pre-conceived notions? Therefore, we can never speak of history genuinely evidenced by historical legitimate facts.
Ben

[Lunitik]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

I do agree with you here that religion as a way to divide peoples must die. In the same breath, I would like to let you know that Judaism is more of a way of life than a religion per se. At least, that's as far as I am concerned.
Ben

For me, religiousness is a way of life, but religion is only a division.

Same goes for any form of Nationalism or Racism, Sexism or basically any -ism. I do not see any value in any of them, although I think the uniqueness of every culture should be celebrated - just not as a divisive mechanism, but rather as a sharing with the past and indeed with the present, for each are beautiful and all should experience as many as possible. I think, in countries like America, this would help bring the society together, where now each subculture seems to keep to itself... for me this is quite depressing. Given exposure to more ways of life, I think all life will become enriched and a new respect will be possible.

There are so many false walls humans have built up, we knocked down one in Berlin after the war but that was easy, it was just a bunch of bricks that we smashed down. It is a shame that the walls between people remain as strong as ever, though.

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Lunitik

It is what is intended, yet most seem to believe they are born again simply by believing in Jesus, there is a lack of any particular effort towards this end because they think just an acceptance is enough it seems. In this I can certainly commend the Kabalists, and yet still I feel they are misled.

The point is not constraint, it is to not become identified with them, but trying to fight with them you will encounter all sorts of problems. There are many practices which are required of the Jewish mystic, but fundamentally they miss the inquiry "who is the practitioner?". Of course, there are many examples of these practices being effective, but it seems to me in both cases that it is almost by accident that they work...

If a farmer plants one hundred trees, and only two deliver fruit, can we say anything positive about the gardener? It seems the trees have come to provide proof almost despite the gardener, not because of.

I do not wish to offend, but it is my desire to bring the traditions closer together that they can learn from each other. For me, the success rates show plenty of room for improvement, and given a world which is much smaller, there is no reason why we cannot collaborate collectively on bettering the situation. I do not see how maintaining ideas of separation and clinging to the old ways can help in bringing people to Self Realization. For me, it seems this is merely a stubbornness to maintain a particular barrier which really has no worth.

What you fail to understand, IMHO, is that there is no learning in the chitchatting of common views. Learning, as all that life is about, is abundant only in controversy. Therefore, the getting together of ideas in a common denominator is not much for one's advantage.
Ben

[Lunitik]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

Have you ever heard that History is usually written based on pre-conceived notions? Therefore, we can never speak of history genuinely evidenced by historical legitimate facts.
Ben

This is a foolish argument, only because scriptures are based on the same types of notions. All documents have a certain bias, disputing which bias is most valid is foolish, truth is always somewhere between the two points. The trouble arises because none of us were there at the time, we cannot say which is correct with any certainty.

[Etu Malku]

Originally Posted by Ben Masada

Have you ever heard that History is usually written based on pre-conceived notions? Therefore, we can never speak of history genuinely evidenced by historical legitimate facts.
Ben

Haven't heard that, but I do know that history is written by the victors