I dont get it....

[Azure24]

Before i go on typing, i'll remind you again i'm not here to start an argument. Just finding the differences of the Religion. (i visit Judaism as well for example).

Originally Posted by Light

If you feel the need to defend your faith as you do above,

Defend? I am not defending anything. Just telling you what i think.

Originally Posted by Light

you can always set up a topic in the Christian forum.

I already have (not with comments decrediting others faiths though).

Originally Posted by Light

in the Christian Forum that they don't believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a prophet just because he is rich.

If thats why some Christians don't believe in the prophet Muhammad, doesn't mean thats why i do (and all Christians).

Originally Posted by Light

We would expect the same respect from you.

I'm sorry! Was i disrespecting you by just explaining to you about Christianity? As far as i'm concered you're the one thats disrespectful. Quote me if you can, but never once have i quoted or tried to find any or minor corruption in the Qu'ran or the Islamic religion. I can list more than once that you have for Christianity though. (Jesus' "defence"? For example)

Originally Posted by Light

Jesus is just a prophet like all Prophets who are doing the same.

Yes he is prophet but not just a prophet. I no Muslims also belive Jesus is not dead. But (and this is a question) why do you think his life is being preserved?

Originally Posted by Light

So, there is a difference for people before and after Jesus.

Your beginning to understand. But not as you think, answer something for me. Why do Muslims believe God (or Allah) sent Jesus to earth. I know your going to answer similar to something like 'to speak God's word. But all prophets have some significance, Moses (Ten commandments), Muhammad (whom Muslims belive the Qua'ran) and Jesus'?

Originally Posted by Light

Being the largest religion, doesn't mean it is the right one.

This was my response to one of your questions and who said that because its one of the largest its the right one? Unless your trying to put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Light

However, Islam doesn't force people to accept its teaching.

Are you trying to created an argument? Well its not working.

Originally Posted by Light

When I asked different domination, they have different explanation and not one have a uniform explanation of the concept.

Whats your point? I told you i don't (and can't) speak for all Christains.

Originally Posted by Light

The is one God you have to worship.

And your saying Christains have more than one God?

Originally Posted by Light

If you are in difficulty, HE is the one you asked for help. If you are in happiness, HE is the one you praised.

Really who'd of thought?

Originally Posted by Light

When you asked yourself, and yourself says - who is that really who gives you the answer?

(no sarcasism intended)But when i said myself i meant....Me.

Originally Posted by Light

For a start, Muslim perfectly understood God. HE creates this world and the whole universe. Muslims aren't ignorant of this fact as it is a part of their article of faith.

I know you meant understand instead of "understood". But yet again your putting words into my mouth, either that or you misunderstood me. When i said ignorant people i didn't mean muslims! I meant people who did not take into the word of God. You are a bit cynical to have thought this.

Originally Posted by Light

Muslims don't believe that God does not go up and down from his Kingdom,

Right! But i meant physically.

Originally Posted by Light

even if God do show HIMself here on earth, there will still be some of us who will not follow HIS teaching.

Okay.

Originally Posted by Light

Islam does not force people in accepting the faith.

Dejavu! We've been here before haven't we? Look back in my post if you don't belive me.

Originally Posted by Light

The fact being, he didn't escape and prior to that he commanded his disciple to carry swords. Why do he need them to carry swords if it is not for defence?

Swords? I don't know what Bible yo have read but i don't remember any swords. I haven't read that part of the Bible in along time and i don't have it with me either, so can any other Christian reading this or (Light) of course quote this.

Originally Posted by Light

OK, lets say he did not want to be interrupted in his prayer. So, what exactly is he praying for, especially like you said he knew Judas was to betray him.

You have read this part of the Bible haven't you? Then you should know. He is the Son of God but he is still human. He was praying to God about his fear of the crucifixion.

Originally Posted by Light

We - as in you? Isn't that a fearful thought, bearing that we only have 60 - 80 earth life years to prepare for it.

Fearful? No. What i was trying to say is that is someone really going to suffer for eternity for not praying properly for lets say(60-80 years). Thats a little harsh isn't it, and if you think this is true imagine the other 'minor' mistakes other make in the life.

Originally Posted by Light

God will not condem us to hell! Thanks for pointing that out Azur24.

Tell me you knew i was being sarcastic? Because i thought you were by saying this.

Originally Posted by Light

I didn't know that it is an example for christians only.

Only? Where did i say only? What i meant was that you were implying Christians didn't do something which was mentioned in the Bible (about doing God's will am i correct?). Which was mentioned in the Bible which Christians read.

Originally Posted by light

We are worshipping the same God.

Then isn't that enough?

Originally Posted by Light

Islam is for the whole humanity. Especially for those who wants to think and find the truth.

So is Christianity.

Originally Posted by Light

Thus, you're more than welcome to read Quran and dispel all of it while reading.

No. I'm not like you.

[thipps]

Moderator Hat on
Salaam,
Lets not turn this into a Christianity vs. Islam debate, otherwise ill just move the thread to the Comparative Religion forum. And no one say that he isnt doing it cause its happening.
Azure, you are in the Islam board, so there are certain rules you have to adhere to. Please read the CoC if you have doubts. No sarcasm.
There is a difference between discussion and debate. Lets try to make this a discussion.
regrads,
thipps - Islam board moderator
Moderator Hat off

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by thipps

Lets try to make this a discussion.

No problem. As i mentioned earlier i was just finding out the differences, i guess this was getting out of hand. So i make an official apology (even though i feel i've done nothing wrong ). So i apologize to Light for any offence or indeed anyone else who was offended. Even though we are of different religions, both teach to respect others, so for this i am sorry. Personally i feel even if historical facts for some religions (no religions in particular) are wrong they all (well most) practically send out the same message.

[Azure24]

Oh and one more thing (since i can't let this one go). Never once in this thread have i offended Islam (other than Light, which i have already apologized for). But i can say Light has offended Christianity (i also expect an apology). I have heard constantly that this is the Islam board. Though this is true, this does not justify to offend other religions (as they can read it). I've said all that i have to say, thank you and goodbye (i will no longer post here again).

[Light]

I was in the midst of preparing a response for Azur24 when there are future conversation in the forum.

Anyway as Azur24 demanded, I apologise if I have offended him in my post . Azur24, you're welcome here as long as you observe the rules of this forum.

There are still some questions that Azur24 have left in his previous post that I think it is worth replying. Here they are (some text have been deleted due ot the turn of event) ...

AS you have mentioned before, I too can't answer for the actions of the rest of Muslims in this forum, but we have a common objective here, ie. to answer question about our faith in the best of our knowledge.

I already have (not with comments decrediting others faiths though).

Praise to Allah for your thoughtfulness. However, there are still some of your fellow Christian who do discredit other faith though.

If thats why some Christians don't believe in the prophet Muhammad, doesn't mean thats why i do (and all Christians).

Alhamdulillah (praise to Allah), just a matter of curiosity, what is your reason for not believing that Muhammad is not a prophet, or, my apology, do you believe Muhammad to be a prophet in the first place?

I'm sorry! Was i disrespecting you by just explaining to you about Christianity? As far as i'm concered you're the one thats disrespectful. Quote me if you can, but never once have i quoted or tried to find any or minor corruption in the Qu'ran or the Islamic religion. I can list more than once that you have for Christianity though. (Jesus' "defence"? For example)

Hmm... this can go on and on. Alright, if you think my previous post have disrespecting you in one way or another, accept my apology. However, as Islam has taught me, I aught to know what have I done to disrespect you, so that I can repent and avoid it in future? So, please enlighten me.

Yes he is prophet but not just a prophet. I no Muslims also belive Jesus is not dead. But (and this is a question) why do you think his life is being preserved?

There is great wisdom in Allah. We cannot even grasp his knowledge in our limited minds. Jesus life is preserved by GOD's will. There is several reason for this, to my opinion, other Muslims may have more authentic reasons base on the Quran and Hadith.

Why was Jesus preserved:
1) He will return to break all the crosses and announce that Islam is the true religion
2) He will return to kill Dajjal who will destroy the world. For Dajjal, his heaven is actually Hell and vice versa. Thus, many people will fall into his fitnah (lies).
3) This is to prove to mankind that Allah is capable of anything. He can extends live of one person as he will. Other example of persons who have their live extended:- Pharoah, Iblis (Satan), the seven people who slept for 300 years in a cave.
4) Again, this also prove that Allah is capable of creating a being outside the norm as you can see of Adam, Eve and also Jesus. Adam - no father, no mother; Eve - no mother; Jesus - no father.

Your beginning to understand. But not as you think, answer something for me. Why do Muslims believe God (or Allah) sent Jesus to earth. I know your going to answer similar to something like 'to speak God's word. But all prophets have some significance, Moses (Ten commandments), Muhammad (whom Muslims belive the Qua'ran) and Jesus'?

Well, you have grasp the main purpose of all the prophets that was sent to Earth. Yes, they are sent to teach the people the way back to God. Or, shall I say the way to salvation. That is to believe that there is no Gods but Allah. It is true that all prophets are equipped with different books and ability. As you rightly said, Moses (Ten commandment), Islam (Quran), Jesus (Bible). Each is sent down in their native language. And each prophet have different miracles, such as Moses (he splits the sea to make a pathway for his people), Jesus (make a bird alive,cure blindness), Muhammad (bring a baby girl back to life, split the moon). These are all miracles that God gave to them so as to prove that they are spreading the true word of God. We were taught of all this miracles from the Quran and Hadith. However the basic is we revered all of them with the same respect as a prophet of God should be respected. In the Quran there are many examples of how the prophets invoked Allah for assistance. These dua (supplication) are useful for us today as it is then. Thus, when we are undergoing a very difficult trial that Allah has sent due to our ignorance, we can follow the dua of Prophet Yunus (pbuh) that he used to recite while he is in the belly of a whale. What I am trying to say is, each prophets have gone through different experience in their life. Allah have mentioned several of them as example for us. These are examples that we can then use to react to our difficult and happy moments in life.

Are you trying to created an argument? Well its not working.

It is not an argument. This is the fact. We don't force people to become Muslims. It's your own choice.

Dejavu! We've been here before haven't we? Look back in my post if you don't belive me.

Reason its there to reinforce that Muslims don't force people to become Muslims. History have shown. It's your choice.

Fearful? No. What i was trying to say is that is someone really going to suffer for eternity for not praying properly for lets say(60-80 years). Thats a little harsh isn't it, and if you think this is true imagine the other 'minor' mistakes other make in the life.

It is harsh. And that is the fact. It's not worth hiding this fact. Allah is all forgiving, when a person say the shadah (proclamation of Islam) and perform all HIS commandments, he is guaranteed heaven although he has to detour to hell for the punishment of his wrongdoings for a period. Thus, minor mistakes may have been forgiven by Allah just by the virtue of observing all HIS commandments. Isn't that merciful ...

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by Azure24

I've said all that i have to say... (i will no longer post here again).

I've decided to go back on this quote and change to 'i'll no longer post here again (apart from quotes), so from now on i'm only going to reply in quotes. I'm starting to think you believe more in the Qu'ran than God, a book does not have the answer for everything. I once watched something on T.V. once when a buhddist boy was in meditation for up to 2 years and longer (basically sitting by a tree not moving an inch or eating, drinking anything. Much like a very extreme form of fasting) no tricks as well, no one here probably believes this but for me it shows God wisdom is more than just on the basis of religion he did believe in God of course, God may have made man, but it was man that made religion (sects you can call it). Just before i start replying in quotes, when i come to think of it, the person i quoted wasn't actually you. So i don't actually know how we'd managed to get into this 'discussion'...Anyhow.

Originally Posted by Light

However, there are still some of your fellow Christian who do discredit other faith though.

Originally Posted by Azure24

...I do not speak for all Christians though...

Originally Posted by Light

This is the fact

......

Originally Posted by Light

what is your reason for not believing that Muhammad is not a prophet, or, my apology, do you believe Muhammad to be a prophet in the first place?

Originally Posted by Azure24

...Hmmm, no offence but i don't believe in Islam's (on some points) theology as well...

.

Originally Posted by Azure24

Okay.

......

Originally Posted by Light

Why was Jesus preserved:

Originally Posted by Light

...Jesus...2) He will return to kill Dajjal who will destroy the world. For Dajjal, his heaven is actually Hell and vice versa. Thus, many people will fall into his fitnah (lies).

Originally Posted by Azure24

Yes he is prophet but not just a prophet.......Through his human form the Son will be descended from Adam, through whom all men died, but He will be a second Adam, by whom all men shall be saved...

.......

Originally Posted by Light

I aught to know what have I done to disrespect you, so that I can repent and avoid it in future? So, please enlighten me.

Originally Posted by Azure24

(Jesus' "defence"? For example)

Originally Posted by Light

We - as in you? Isn't that a fearful thought, bearing that we only have 60 - 80 earth life years to prepare for it. Hmm... at least we know that our prayers are similar to the way Jesus (pbuh) did. Thus, based on your statement, God will not condem us to hell! Praise be to Allah, the owner of the day of judgement. Thanks for pointing that out Azur24.

Originally Posted by Light

my apology because I thought the Bible is for the whole humanity

Originally Posted by Azure24

...isn't that enough?

........

Originally Posted by Light

There is great wisdom in Allah. We cannot even grasp his knowledge in our limited minds.

Originally Posted by Light

For a start, Muslim perfectly understood God...

Originally Posted by Azure24

...Right!

.........

Originally Posted by Light

Praise to Allah for your thoughtfulness.

[Light]

I'm starting to think you believe more in the Qu'ran than God, a book does not have the answer for everything.

To clarify this, God, send Quran down to HIS prophet Muhammad to lead mankind to the right path. Thus, there is no contradiction of believing more in the Quran than God. Because, it is written by God HIMself. Well, it is just the same to Christian on the bible. Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet not only for the Muslims. He is sent as a mercy for all mankind, past and present. It is thus each and every Muslim duty to convey the message. That is all we have to do. Not to convert you, but just to convey the message. Allah will open the heart of whoever he will to embrace Islam. We have no power nor duty to force people into submission.

A book as concise as the Quran does not contain the answers to everything, that, I agree. But, it shows the path/guidelines in finding an answer. The right way to gain Allah approval and to steer away from ours or the whole community destruction.

I once watched something on T.V. once when a buhddist boy was in meditation for up to 2 years and longer (basically sitting by a tree not moving an inch or eating, drinking anything. Much like a very extreme form of fasting) no tricks as well, no one here probably believes this but for me it shows God wisdom is more than just on the basis of religion he did believe in God of course, God may have made man, but it was man that made religion (sects you can call it).

That shows just how capable a human body is. And also the strength of faith. If someone really believe in something and do it, with Allah permission it will be successful. Thus, it is not a surprise if one sits and meditates like the boy you mentioned above.

However, in Islam, as it is a religion of moderation, we are always encouraged to give rest to our body. There is even a history in the prophet (pbuh) time when a lady was praying so much that she had a rope tied across two columns for her to hang on to when she starts feeling tried. One day when the messenger of Allah (pbuh) came and saw the rope, he make enquries. One of the companions then told him the story. This is when the messenger of Allah (pbuh) said (sorry I didn't remember the exact words) that the body needs rest too and not to neglect it.

God wisdom encompass everything that is seen and unseen by our naked eye. God have declared in the Quran that HE has perfected the religion and have choosen Islam as the religion for mankind. See the surah below.

005.003
YUSUFALI: Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

As we believe the Quran is an authentic book from God and the last one revealed in the line of prophethood, thus we can fully confirm that Islam is not a manmade religion, but a religion that was sent down by God HIMself.

(Jesus' "defence"? For example)

Right, let me put here what I've found...

Here, Jesus introduce the subject of defense. If not then what else does the following statement means...

"When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!"
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:35-36

And Jesus disciple responded prior before leaving Galilee...

". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough". (HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:38

And this is a few verses after Jesus prayed (fell on his face).

"And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and struck a servant of the high priests, and cut off his ear." (HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 26:51

Isn't above shows Jesus does plan for his defence and verse 51 shows that one of the disciple did end up cutting one of the high priests ear.

Correct me if I am wrong, and my apology if this is disrespectful to you. In fact I am showing that Jesus is a very knowledgeable individual who is also a master tatician. I admire him for his skillful planning in his last moments before (muslim version - he is lifted up to heaven) ( Christian version - caught and crucified)

...

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by Light

Isn't above shows Jesus does plan for his defence and verse 51 shows that one of the disciple did end up cutting one of the high priests ear.
Correct me if I am wrong, and my apology if this is disrespectful to you. In fact I am showing that Jesus is a very knowledgeable individual who is also a master tatician. I admire him for his skillful planning in his last moments before (muslim version - he is lifted up to heaven) ( Christian version - caught and crucified)

...

No not really. Jesus did not tell them to attack any one with the swords in fact after one of the desciples attacks one of the high preists with the sword in Luke22:51 Jesus answers by saying "Suffer ye thus far." it then says 'he touched his ear (high Preist), and healed him'.
Also in the moment in John18:11 Jesus says to Peter (who is mentioned as the one who uses the sword) "Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall i not drink it?"
And finally in Matthew26:52 in the ame part he Jesus said "Put up thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword".
Lets leave it there. This can go on and on forever.

[Light]

Lets leave it there. This can go on and on forever.

Sure, no problem. Hope the answers shows that I don't intend to disrespect or offend Christianity or you. Yes it can go on forever, because it is something both you and I differed in our believe in God.

End of the day, the following sura fits this situation:

109.001 PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
109.002 PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
109.003 PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
109.004 PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
109.005 PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109.006 PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

And it also reminds me of the following sura:

103.001 PICKTHAL: By the declining day,
103.002 PICKTHAL: Lo! man is a state of loss,
103.003 PICKTHAL: Save those who believe and do good works, and exhort one another to truth and exhort one another to endurance.

To surmise, sura 109 is a reminder for both of us of our difference. Thus, you can carry on believing in God the way you did and I believe in the way I am. The truth shall come out in the day of Judgement. Praise to Allah, bear withness that the message has been conveyed.

While sura 103 reminds us that indeed we are in the state of loss for every seconds of our life, unless we do good works and enjoin each other on truth and patience. Just so we realise that time on this earth is so short and there is a lot we could do the help ourself and others from the hellfire. May Allah accept our prayers, amiin.


peace.

[cyberpi]

Light,
Not taking sides on your conversation but I'd really hate to be the one to convict myself before God (swt) by judging and calling anyone a disbeliever in God (swt) from as little as a conversation on a web page. Faith and good deeds are not measured by a conversation. If the person claims to be a Jew or Christian then the Qur'an directly commands a Muslim to say the exact opposite of what you've just said. The exact opposite. (29:46, Surat 109) How is that possible? I suggest that your mistake is to confuse a believer in God (swt) with a believer in your words... two different things entirely.

Some verses for you to consider:

29:46
Yusufali: And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
Pickthal: And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender.
Shakir: And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.
Khalifa: Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

5:69
Yusufali: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Pickthal: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Shakir: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.
Khalifa: Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

If you claim that a person's Faith is measured by whether or not they state the Shahadah, then I advise you to study the following verse.

3:67
Yusufali: Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.
Pickthal: Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.
Shakir: Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.
Khalifa: Abraham was neither Jewish, nor Christian; he was a monotheist submitter. He never was an idol worshiper.

Peace be to you both.

[Light]

Cyberpi,

Bismillai Rahman Nir Rahimm... In the name of God most Merciful most Compassionate.
I start this post with the above, that was commanded to all Muslims. Say the name of Allah before you start on any work so that it will gain HIS blessing.

Light,
Not taking sides on your conversation but I'd really hate to be the one to convict myself before God (swt) by judging and calling anyone a disbeliever in God (swt) from as little as a conversation on a web page. Faith and good deeds are not measured by a conversation. If the person claims to be a Jew or Christian then the Qur'an directly commands a Muslim to say the exact opposite of what you've just said. The exact opposite. (29:46, Surat 109) How is that possible? I suggest that your mistake is to confuse a believer in God (swt) with a believer in your words... two different things entirely.

In my posts, I do not make judgement. It may appears so just because I include the verse of Sura Al-Kafiruun. This is to make people aware that indeed there are differences in our theology and the Quran teaches us to respect people of other faith. Thus, this Sura tells us that we have differences in the way we believe, practise and professing our faith. Although it may be to the same God.

Some verses for you to consider:
29:46
Yusufali: And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
...

Alhamdulillah, praise to Allah. You've bring forth this verse. This does not contradict to my earlier post. Reason being, if you're Christian or Jews, you have you own theology. We have our own, but yet we believe and worship the same God. However, the method of executing it are different.
In this verse "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you".
One have to ask what does this mean. Does this referred to the current Christian theology or is it the original revelation by God? For Muslims, we believe in the original revelation (and theology) from God that was revealed to Jesus (pbuh). Not the present one. Christian may claim the present one is the original revealed to Jesus (pbuh). I rest my case on that as it is their opinion. We have our own opinion.

Lets examine this verse further, "Our Allah and your Allah is one". This is telling us that Christian (and Jews) believe in the same God. However, the Christian theology - believing Holy Trinity and the salvation from the original Sin - as the base the Christian faith, Christianity is clearly rejected in Islam. God has declared in ayat 4:171 the absurdity of Trinity.

004.171
YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

And again God say in Sura 005:073

005.073
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

I can further confirm that Quran is the only book that mentioned Trinity explicitly. And it is something that God have declared as absurd and unacceptable. So, back to ayat 29:46, which says "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation)". It means that, don't dispute with the Christian and Jews except with something better. Something better must be the truth and we are obliged to tell the truth. If they dispel the truth, God further tells them in sura 4:171. Don't commit excesses in their religion (Christianity).
Sura 005:073 further warns them, "If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.".
Thus, who are we to desist God's command?

Right, back to your original post about judging or calling someone a disbelievers. It is not me who pass that judgement, but the Quran. And I am following what the Quran says. Thus, if someone rejects after all that was revealed to them, the best manner (in my opinion) so at to show them that Islam does not force people into submission, is sura Al-Kafiroon which I have post earlier.
In Sura Al-Kafiroon if I may extend on its meaning...

109.001 PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!

This encompass all who do not believe in Islam. Islam is God choosen and perfected religion as stated in Sura 005 verse no 3. Let me say here PERFECTED religion. That is enough to say that ISLAM is the final religion that GOD has perfected through his Last Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). So in matter of fact, this is saying that no other religion will be accepted from the time this verse is revealed until the end of time. Some people might feel awkward to say this and some may come out with concession to make it sound nice to non-Muslims, but this is the truth based on the verses in Quran. You may have you own opinion and I have mine. That brings us to the second verse.

109.002 PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;

By this verse, God is telling us to be firm in our believe. Thus, there is no concession/diversion on our way of worshipping HIM. The theology, practices and law is clearly defined for us to follow in our daily life. The core values, doesn't change since it was revealed. So we don't divert nor do we worship what you worship.

109.003 PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.

This clearly state that Christian or Jews or any other religion will not worship what we worship. Let's put this frankly, Christian prayed using Jesus as an intermediary. Jesus is called upon as the Son of God at the end of their prayer. We don't do that nor will be ever do that - else we apostate from Islam - nauzubillah (Allah forbid). We reverred Jesus as a prophet - one of the greatest prophet.

109.004 PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.

This is talking about present and future. Which states that the Islamic doctorine is well established and cannot be altered. Such that it cannot be amended to be similar to Christian, Jews or other religion.

109.005 PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

Vice versa. If the other religion amended their theology and began to worship like Muslims and follow the same Islamic article of faith. They are Muslims! Alhamdulillah.

109.006 PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

This is a clear indication that you have your own way and I have mine. Similarly, you have your way of describing your non-believers (eg. "No one goes to the Father except via me" - the most famous verse from the Bible). So we too have our own way in describing our non-believers. It is true that, Faith and good deeds are not measured by a conversation. However, conversation is a result of conscious thinking of the individual that was influenced by their interaction to the outside world. In short, conversation goes a long way in describing someone believe and thought.

5:69
Yusufali: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Pickthal: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Shakir: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.
Khalifa: Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

This verse is perfectly fine and has no contradition. It is the individual understanding of it is flawed. When the Quran says those who believe in the Quran, follow the Jewish scriptures etc. What is the Quran is saying exactly? It is referring to the original scriptures that God revealed to Moses (pbuh), David (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh). Not the current version of the text which contains amongst other things words from historian and does contain obscenity. It has also gone through a number of editions.
Furthermore, if we were to read this verse in conjunction to verse 004:171 and 005:073. This shows the clear picture. The christian have to only renouce trinity and they shall not fear for their fate in judgement day. That's all. Dear Muslims, please correct me if I am wrong in this one.

If you claim that a person's Faith is measured by whether or not they state the Shahadah, then I advise you to study the following verse.

By someone saying the Shahadah, he knows that he has reverted to the natural religion (Islam). Thus, well aware of the duties encompass within it. Therefore, this is one of the first yardstick in measuring one's faith.

3:67
Yusufali: Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.
Pickthal: Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.
Shakir: Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.
Khalifa: Abraham was neither Jewish, nor Christian; he was a monotheist submitter. He never was an idol worshiper.

"and bowed his will to Allah's" - the same way Muslim do in our prayer. Abraham is a Muslim!
"he joined not gods with Allah" - clear indication that Abraham is a Muslim (submit to the wills of Allah). Also, another rejection to the trinity.
And the ayat didn't say Abraham is not a Muslim, it just say Abraham is not Jews nor Christian. "but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), " - surrendered to Allah - the basis of the Islamic faith - where we surendered to the will of Allah. Similar? Something to ponder!

Thus, in Abraham time, he have proclaim the following:

006.079
YUSUFALI: "For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah."
PICKTHAL: Lo! I have turned my face toward Him Who created the heavens and the earth, as one by nature upright, and I am not of the idolaters.
SHAKIR: Surely I have turned myself, being upright, wholly to Him Who originated the heavens and the earth, and I am not of the polytheists.

That is Shahadah. Proclamation of faith is a shahadah.
"never shall I give partners to Allah." - no partners? - isn't that shahadah - I bear withness there is not gods but Allah.
The difference for us of this period is we also witness that Muhammad (pbuh) is a Messenger of God - not Son, God or any such things. This second witnessing is to ensure that we get our understanding right about Muhammad (pbuh).

Alhamdulillah, my purpose of this post is not to belittle other faith. But merely to show the truth and fact on Islam. In my earlier post I include Sura Asr' as a reminder to us all. A good reminder which if we ponder deeply is a good news and a warning for all of us. Use our time in this world wisely and take the opportunity God gives us to to HIS will. Worship him as he commanded and keep asking questions to seek truth. Insyallah, Allah permit, we will be saved from the permanent torment of the Hellfire.

Peace be to you both.

And you too...

I would like to close with wallahu Alam - and Allah knows best. If the above have erred, is purely my own doing, forgive me. If there is truth, verily it is from Allah.

Ma-a-salama (with peace)

[Zaakir]

can i just say...the Quran and Islam does have an answer for everything, from hair growth, to cleen teeth, to walking, eating, drinkin, even urinating, going on a journey, how to sleep, how to sit,when to sleep, as a former christian, i know taht christianity doesnt give any comments about any of these things, which makes it a beleif, and tahts it...where as Islam is not just a beleif its a way of life, to use every minute of every day, whereas christianity, from what i remember is just a sunday thing

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

can i just say...the Quran and Islam does have an answer for everything, from hair growth, to cleen teeth, to walking, eating, drinkin, even urinating, going on a journey, how to sleep, how to sit,when to sleep, as a former christian, i know taht christianity doesnt give any comments about any of these things, which makes it a beleif, and tahts it...where as Islam is not just a beleif its a way of life, to use every minute of every day, whereas christianity, from what i remember is just a sunday thing

To be fair to the Christians, Christianity is CERTAINLY NOT just a sunday thing. A truly practicing Christian remembers his Lord every minute of every day just as truly practicing Muslims do.
Though they may not have specific rules on how to brush their teeth, or use the toilet, they have general rules which govern every minute of their life.
What you say about Christianity being a sunday thing... can also be said of Islam when a lot of Muslims treat their religion as just a "friday thing", or just a "ramadan thing".


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[Zaakir]

i dint meen the sunday thing..i used to go church other days aswell as sunday, i was actually going to write in that i didnt meen that...but as for what you said about having general rules to govern life...where?i was christian...and know quite a lot about the religion...coming from strict roots

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

i dint meen the sunday thing..i used to go church other days aswell as sunday, i was actually going to write in that i didnt meen that...but as for what you said about having general rules to govern life...where?i was christian...and know quite a lot about the religion...coming from strict roots

One example of a general rule would be that of pacifism, I'm sure you remember what was said about turning the other cheek or letting the thief take your under-garment along with your outer-garment.
While I don't personally subscribe to this type of rule, I acknowledge that there are a lot of very faithful Christians who wouldn't even resist an attack or a robbery. I've heard of Christians who were put to death because the refused to participate in a "war effort".

Another general rule would be that of refraining from abusive/vulgar speech, as per the teaching "it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out from the mouth that defiles a man". In this there is also the permission to eat what one likes, with the understanding that speaking a bad word is more likely to debase man's soul than eating a bad food.

Of course, I'm not saying that I subscribe exactly to these rules, but I know Christians that are mindful of them all day and every day. And this is done in constant remembrance of God.

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