I Don't Support the Troops

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hmmm...just think about the outcry if we were to do this (no drilling in my back yard). While I'm not a supporter of draconian methods, what a quick way this would be to 'hit home' the problems of our wasteful ways...

lunamoth

Exactly. "I want what I want, but not at the cost of my green yard, the spotted owl, my big house, my SUV, my weekly tennis matches, or my golf course. So I'll buy it from elsewhere...who ever will sell."

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

just something i read today that seemed somewhat relevant..



"There is not a "way to peace". Peace is the way."

metta,

~v

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste all,

just something i read today that seemed somewhat relevant..



"There is not a "way to peace". Peace is the way."

metta,

~v

We don't exactly know the way to peace (apparently), which means we don't know what peace means...not really. So the second part is mute.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We don't exactly know the way to peace (apparently)

True dat, but either there are lots of folks here to help show us the way ... or I'm abraham lincoln. Some come from a darn far ways off, others are good, good friends - and it's not the first time they've tried to show us. I recall some Beatles lyrics - wait! (I mean, no, not that one, hang on ... )

The Lord loves the one that loves the Lord
And the law says if you don't give,
then you don't get loving

Now the Lord helps those that help themselves
And the law says whatever you do
is going to come right back on you

We all making out
Like we own this whole world
While the leaders of nations
They're acting like big girls
With no thoughts for their God
Who provides us with all
But when death comes to claim them
Who will stand,
and who will fall?

Okay, it was George actually ... The Lord Loves the One (That Loves the Lord).

Yes Q, I recall this Utopian vision you mention from another thread. Hope it catches ...

taijasi

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

... The Lord Loves the One (That Loves the Lord).

Yes Q, I recall this Utopian vision you mention from another thread. Hope it catches ...

taijasi

We can dream and hope, and act...starting at home...so easy, but so hard...

v/r

Q

[taijasi]

Some Beatles lyrics (from `Revolution') just occurred to me in a way they normally don't, and I think this is relevant. Would anyone care to comment?

"You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
all right, all right, all right
all right, all right, all right"

In particular, I was thinking about the part I highlighted, but really all of this just kind of hit me. What is he getting at?

a contemplative taijasi

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No way to fight by the "rules of civilized war" when the enemby adheres to no such rules AND, the innocent majority of civilians who watch everything by everyone do nothing to help themselves by helping the side that is fighting for them, and their cause.

As stated before. This is like no war we've ever seen before. One side has decided borders, and rules of engagement, and the other has no sides, no borders, no rules of engagement, no value for life, no value for people.

If you read history....

I do, and this rant seems so similar it could be paraphrased from the British while they were fighting those terroists in the colonies. The scurvy dogs hid in the bushes and ambushed our men as they were marching, they'd fight at night, send in marauders...don't you know when you are at war you are supposed to stand in pretty lines and blow each others brains out.

There are no freakin rules in war (except the winners get to write the history)...such a strange thing to complain about, then or now. (Mom, he's not fightin fair, I went into his room, took over his things, incapacitated his video game, destroyed his bathroom, kicked him out, but I've provided a bucket and a blanket, and now his friends are pickin on me while I try to clean up...)

It has been proven that we went into this debacle by very selective cherry picking of intelligence...we didn't get the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...the UN and congress and the American people were force fed bits of inflamatory information...not the whole picture...Iraq and Sadam were railroaded shoot first and let G-d sort them out. Was he guilty of some stuff, yes, was he a terrible dictator, yes...get in line he is one of dozens....but we were led in under false pretenses...and it has yet to be determined whether it was illegal or not. I'm thinkng if the Republicans lose congress this election we'll be getting an inquiry...if not it'll go by the wayside for 5-10 years before the truth comes out.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

I do, and this rant seems so similar it could be paraphrased from the British while they were fighting those terroists in the colonies. The scurvy dogs hid in the bushes and ambushed our men as they were marching, they'd fight at night, send in marauders...don't you know when you are at war you are supposed to stand in pretty lines and blow each others brains out.

There are no freakin rules in war (except the winners get to write the history)...such a strange thing to complain about, then or now. (Mom, he's not fightin fair, I went into his room, took over his things, incapacitated his video game, destroyed his bathroom, kicked him out, but I've provided a bucket and a blanket, and now his friends are pickin on me while I try to clean up...)

It has been proven that we went into this debacle by very selective cherry picking of intelligence...we didn't get the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...the UN and congress and the American people were force fed bits of inflamatory information...not the whole picture...Iraq and Sadam were railroaded shoot first and let G-d sort them out. Was he guilty of some stuff, yes, was he a terrible dictator, yes...get in line he is one of dozens....but we were led in under false pretenses...and it has yet to be determined whether it was illegal or not. I'm thinkng if the Republicans lose congress this election we'll be getting an inquiry...if not it'll go by the wayside for 5-10 years before the truth comes out.

we can't turn our back on the world...

but we could start considering to use some more principled methods...

What did you mean by that then? Deal diplomatically, or use sanctions?

And if there are no rules in war, then why don't we just wipe the map clean and start over? That's what the Al-Queda and insurgents want to do. Initially we were going to just maintain (no policing), but the Iraqis demanded otherwise. Now we are policing and the Iraqis are screaming "get out"? I don' think so. Not the majority anyway.

Plus, the both political parties voted for the war, and the UN stated it may come to this (after the 15th resolution was ignored).

You know, Clinton was impeached for far less "misleading" than what you are claiming the current administration has done. Yet I don't see charges being brought up against anyone. I don't think even if democrats take over the house, that there will be an inquiry of anykind. What I do think is that there are things that will not soon be divulged to the public (such as where, if any, the WMD disappeared to), for what ever international political reasons. There are things about WWII that we still know nothing about. But here, what happened for example, to Iraq's mighty air force in 1991? It was the largest in the region, but it too disappeared...That is because it was buried in the desert, then later flown to Iran (who still has it). Iraq had WMD, but where did it go? I believe the government has quite a good idea where it went, and that the stuff is still there. I'd look north of the Iraqi border...

Finally, we didn't go over and trash Saddam's bedroom. And we certainly didn't leave a bucket and a blanket. We're rebuilding the infrastructure, and others are blowing it back up, so that we have to go back and build it again.

I think however, that you and I are not going to see anything in agreement on this issue. So I'll back out now.

v/r

Q

[wil]

The War Prayer

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and sputtering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spreads of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country and invoked the God of Battles, beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpouring of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.

It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came – next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their faces alight with material dreams – visions of a stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! – then home from the war, bronzed heros, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation – "God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!"

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory.

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there, waiting.

With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal," Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside – which the startled minister did – and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said

"I come from the Throne – bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd and grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import – that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of – except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two – one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of His Who hearth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this – keep it in mind. If you beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer – the uttered part of it. I am commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it – that part which the pastor, and also you in your hearts, fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory – must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(After a pause)

"Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits."

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

by Mark Twain

Note: Twain wrote The War Prayer during the Spanish-American War. It was submitted for publication, but on March 22, 1905, Harper's Bazaar rejected it as "not quite suited to a woman's magazine." Eight days later, Twain wrote to his friend Dan Beard, to whom he had read the story, "I don't think the prayer will be published in my time. None but the dead are permitted to tell the truth." Because he had an exclusive contract with Harper & Brothers, Mark Twain could not publish "The War Prayer" elsewhere and it remained unpublished until 1923.

[Tao_Equus]

I have strong opinions on this matter. In the U.K. anyone who saw last nights channel4 report by John snow 'the truth about iraq' would have some inkling of whats wrong.
To start my point I would ask you to all ask yourselves how did such a stupid and illiterate man become president of the most 'powerful' country on earth?
Well the answer is do puppets have brains?
The fact is american politics is far too high stake to not be corrupt and that the puppet masters dont want the top job. Anyone who fails to take this into account is simply not weighing the facts as they are. War is Good Businessis an old slogan now, but that does not mean its lost any of its truth. The fact that at least 6 independant journalists in the past year have died by american bullets trying to bring us 'some truth' from Iraq is testament to the truth the american administration wants you to see. The fact is if the american media were true and truly independent then Bush's ratings would be measured in fractions of a percent.
This situation is really a contemporary 'vietnam'. The US ego hates the concept of pulling out. This is a national obsession of superiority that is perhaps evident to all non-americans but so sadly slips their collective vision. Maybe they got it from the 'british' ,that now defunct empire, perhaps being at the heart of that once global supremacy, now a token 'poodle' democracy, I can see what you americans seem to miss. War is waged by business for business and no other reason. Whether that business carries a political banner or a religeous symbol its still profitable to the few that are never ever at the sharp end.
Tiajasi, 'You say you'l change the constitution', well they did and no-one even blinked...whats going on here. Time americans thought 'mafia', thought 'Rumsfeldt' and time all americans woke up to these truly 'known unknowns'. its so slapping in the face obvious it makes me truly angry. Even my 60yr old 'passive' father feels like he wants to become an anti-bush/blair 'terrorist' these days. Thats a powerful message to me. The mood of the people is far removed for those advocating or 'emotionally committed' to this insanity. This is not a war. This has no moral foundation unless you call the greed of a few shareholders a moral stance. Real people are dying there every day, few of them americans. Those that are own no shares. Qualholm, you may have been there, but did you walk down the street, outside the green-zone and buy a kebab? Did you do such a simple thing? You are happy to see your sons go there. and you say they are happy to go. You will be happy I am not your son, it's best I can put it.
This occupation has no justice, no moral foundation. It was an exercise to remove one ex-CIA stooge and replace him with another to maintain the profits of a few select individuals. Thats the sum of it. Troops are pawns in a much bigger game.

TE

[lunamoth]

Hi TE, I don't think we should have gone into Iraq either but now that it's done what do you think would happen if the US just pulled out? Wouldn't that just make the situation worse, and have people around the world screaming because we went in and disrupted the (very corrupt!) status quo, and did not stay to help things stabilize and rebuild?

lunamoth

[China Cat Sunflower]

Well said TE! It's all about corporate profits. The conservative echo chamber in this country can't believe that people are pessimistic when, by all accounts, the "economy" is booming. But the "economy" is corporations and fatcats. The rest of us are having a hell of a hard time. I'm personally so angry I could spit teeth.

Chris

[Tao_Equus]

Its always painful to 'retreat'. But the civil war raging in Iraq is a price that millions of innocent Iraqies pay for in blood while the 'republican' mafia shareholders desperately try to keep themselves in the game. If all troops were to be withdrawn then there would undoubtably be a period of chaos. But no more a chaos than whats happening now and things would settle down. The only reason for an american, or british, italian, romanian or any other presence there is to support the greed of a very few people. Soldiers are pawns. America and its puppets are confined to the green zone. They do not govern Iraq but only seek to maintain the numerous profitable enterprises of war. Most days you cannot drive from the green zone, (who the hell named it that even?), to the airport. If after so long an occupation the military cannot even provide a few miles of security along a road from a city center to an airport do you really think things will get better?
Most of whats bad in Iraq right now is as a result of the 'international' presence. Removing it is like pulling a decaying tooth, painful but ultimately brings relief. Sure some corrupt, nasty ego will rise to the top there in time.....but whats new? Only people to suffer in the US, UK, Italy or elsewhere are a few, a very few, very rich power mad greedy b******s. Do we really care about them? Every troop back home is a safe troop. And they are our sons and daughters.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

To start my point I would ask you to all ask yourselves how did such a stupid and illiterate man become president of the most 'powerful' country on earth?...

Hmm to start, stupid and illiterate...He's the president (elected twice, second time soundly), and very rich, and he speaks several languages fluently...just not the Queen's English.

How indeed?

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

But TE, don't you think it would be quite likely that Iran would quicky move in, overtly or covertly, creating a worse situation for the people of Iraq and a threat for the larger region, esp Israel?

(I'm not naiive about business interests in this situation, and as I said I did not agree with this war, but I see a problem with the US pulling out now, and it has nothing to do with my ego. If we could leave tail-tucked and not have things get a lot worse I would be singing a very different tune. And I also know that the US and Britain were very much involved in creating Saddam in the first place.)

luna