I Don't Support the Troops

[I, Brian]

Okay, thanks for the info - considering the good relationships between the Shah and America, that doesn't surprise - I sometimes forget Iran before the Revolution.

As for the rhetoric - certainly agree we're seeing a less moderate face than Khatami when he was President - but I'm not so sure that Ahmadinejad is adding much to the attitude of the hardliner clerics.

2c.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Your first thoughts were "Oscar Mike Golf. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot," (or something like that, correct?) They were the thoughts of a gentleman I know who was within three blocks of the Twin Towers when they went down.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

True, and I don't think he was using semiphore either...but that was well done Phyllis.

v/r

Q

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

TS,

What's your motivation for wanting to join the Army? If you have good ASVAB scores (it's a really easy test) and are just looking for bennies and a career or career starter I would suggest the Air Force. They've got the best facilities, lightest duty, best food, and you'll never even be close to the action. But if you're looking for war adventures I could see going into the Army.

All the best in whatever you decide to do.

Chris

Yeah, it's a really easy test, but anything will do when you're trying to recruit.

I thought my reasons were pretty good for wanting to join the Armed Forces, not specifically the Army. But my family is totally against it. Even my dad, who normally supports me in my decisions and just helps me balance it out, was totally against me joining. It disturbed my mother too much so I'm letting it go.

[Amica]

Hi

China SunFlower, I think many may agree with you BUT they are scared to say. There is something in the air (FEAR?) that saying you do not support the troops that go on a killing spree is not patriotic.
I personally feel that in the beginning when people suspected but did not know much about Bush's lies, I supported the troops. But now after the lies have been confirmed, and after we all can see that the war is a hatred against a people, their religion and a total drive to steal some oil, then I lost the support I had for the troops. They now know the war is illegal, they now know it is wrong for them to be the cause of the death of 100,000 + Iraqi deaths, and it is time for them to leave. But they won't.

It is funny to me when peace protesters do not dare to say that the current troops are killers and not liberators. All they have caused is more violence and bloodshed in Iraq. Not to mention sectarian divisions that contribute more to the bad situation.

Oops, maybe I will get arrested for saying this above. God Almighty knows how Bush will name me now...

[wil]

Originally Posted by Amica

It is funny to me when peace protesters do not dare to say that the current troops are killers and not liberators. All they have caused is more violence and bloodshed in Iraq. Not to mention sectarian divisions that contribute more to the bad situation.

I actually have a reverse issue. I've been to the peace/anti war rallies and heard the hate, death to Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld rhetoric and it sickens me. The only way to change is to be the change. One cannot eliminate hate with hate, or war with war. It is upon us to walk our walk, realize that everything is, and if we stand our ground and support peace, not violence for peace, or hatespeach for peace...someday we will have an effect.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Amica

Hi

China SunFlower, I think many may agree with you BUT they are scared to say. There is something in the air (FEAR?) that saying you do not support the troops that go on a killing spree is not patriotic.
I personally feel that in the beginning when people suspected but did not know much about Bush's lies, I supported the troops. But now after the lies have been confirmed, and after we all can see that the war is a hatred against a people, their religion and a total drive to steal some oil, then I lost the support I had for the troops. They now know the war is illegal, they now know it is wrong for them to be the cause of the death of 100,000 + Iraqi deaths, and it is time for them to leave. But they won't.

It is funny to me when peace protesters do not dare to say that the current troops are killers and not liberators. All they have caused is more violence and bloodshed in Iraq. Not to mention sectarian divisions that contribute more to the bad situation.

Oops, maybe I will get arrested for saying this above. God Almighty knows how Bush will name me now...

Present the Lies please. I'd really like to see them and the evidence you have to back up your astounding claims.

And where do you get that the troops are killers and not liberators? And how do 18 to 27 year olds concoct sectarian divisions?

You really want to see bloodshed? Let the Iranians come in to "liberate" the shiites from the Sunnis, and them "blasted Kurds". I think you will see 30 percent of the Iraqi people depart this earth (if not enslaved), in very short order.

Better yet, let's Hezbolah and Hamas have their way with the Israelis...they know so much better than we "killers" how to run things, and how to treat people.

And try telling your story to the 2500 youth (or their families) who spilled their blood on sand not in their own home land, trying to help a people who can't seem to get off their butts and help themselves...

You really aught to try reading up on the facts before you engage your opinion.

You know the beauty of this? You can spout off at the mouth without fear of retribution. You have that right and that freedom here. Those people over there have no such luxury.

Oh, and President Bush doesn't have time for the diatribe you put out. He's too busy trying to do his part in keeping at least part of the world from disintigrating, while everyone else is screaming "PEACE PEACE". If left alone, I agree with you, eventually there will be peace...the peace of the dead.

v/r

Q

[wil]

C'mon Q, we know it is touchy, but the truth is it is a shame we've lost 2500 soldiers, I feel for their families. But in a few years we killed more Iraqi's than Sadam did in 30...when did President Bush get a letter asking us to liberate them, and why do we ignore the same letters from N. Korea or countries in Africa where tens of thousands are dying today?

In the past two wars...the first where our ambassador said we weren't concerned about their border disputes...its on tape, it was played on 60 minutes and Primetime...then we bombed out there water and sewage and electric facilities...and put sanctions against them buying parts to fix...and then our gloriious UN and the games in the oil for food scandal.. We've bombed them backwards...and want to get bonuses for bringing the oil backin in production, and for getting a small percentage of the electric and water working....part of the day. Halliburton steals a billion...no biggy.

Truth is Sadam was evil, but built roads, schools and Universities, women were educated under his regime and he kept the civil war forces at bay...with an iron fist...but at bay...for 30 years...all while doing our bidding fighting Iran "keeping peace in the middle east" Rumsfeld visited with him more than once...our dear ally he was...after all he let our western companies in, he let the oil flow...then one day when we cut him off GWI, and he began trading with other countries and Russia and France got his oil, we hit him with GWII...

Liberators? That is the recent spin...it wasn't the old spin...

Hey I'll just pick one lie...from 2004...'Let me make it clear, we are not getting any wiretaps without a warrant. There are no warrantless wiretaps'...oh that wasnt against the Iraqi's....that was taking US freedoms away...oops.

[earl]

I hate bloodshed-of any sort. So many by-standers let alone combatants die. So tragic. unfortunately, while I've long believed that when it comes to Middle Eastern politics there's some blame to go around to nearly everyone, I've finally concluded what has probably been so obvious to many here, that there are individuals and groups that simply are so caught up in the twisted evil of their leaders and are so inimical to humanity at large as a result that no reason will stop them. Only violence. That's been true through so many tragic times and places throughout history: Nazi Germany, Rwanda, Bosnia, well you get the picture. And now Iran and North Korea-scarey as violent altercation with them could have even larger consequences. But Wil, I'm 52 yo, came up in the hippie era of radical America & am largely still a flaming liberal. But one thing I have not clung to-was the ever so sweet, naive notion that "all you need is love." wish it were so. But there are way too many really nasty folk out there. earl

[taijasi]

Oh wow, what a neat rolling stones song ...

Hmmmm ...

Please allow me to introduce myself
Im a man of wealth and taste
Ive been around for a long, long year
Stole many a mans soul and faith
And I was round when jesus christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game
I stuck around st. petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
Im a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached bombay
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me lucifer
cause Im in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or Ill lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down
Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
Tell me baby, whats my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, whats my name
I tell you one time, youre to blame
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah
Whats me name
Tell me, baby, whats my name
Tell me, sweetie, whats my name
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah

... makes me pause to reflect.

Taijasi

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by earl

I've finally concluded what has probably been so obvious to many here, that there are individuals and groups that simply are so caught up in the twisted evil of their leaders and are so inimical to humanity at large as a result that no reason will stop them. Only violence.

And they're called...Republicans!

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

C'mon Q, we know it is touchy, but the truth is it is a shame we've lost 2500 soldiers, I feel for their families. But in a few years we killed more Iraqi's than Sadam did in 30...when did President Bush get a letter asking us to liberate them, and why do we ignore the same letters from N. Korea or countries in Africa where tens of thousands are dying today?

In the past two wars...the first where our ambassador said we weren't concerned about their border disputes...its on tape, it was played on 60 minutes and Primetime...then we bombed out there water and sewage and electric facilities...and put sanctions against them buying parts to fix...and then our gloriious UN and the games in the oil for food scandal.. We've bombed them backwards...and want to get bonuses for bringing the oil backin in production, and for getting a small percentage of the electric and water working....part of the day. Halliburton steals a billion...no biggy.

Truth is Sadam was evil, but built roads, schools and Universities, women were educated under his regime and he kept the civil war forces at bay...with an iron fist...but at bay...for 30 years...all while doing our bidding fighting Iran "keeping peace in the middle east" Rumsfeld visited with him more than once...our dear ally he was...after all he let our western companies in, he let the oil flow...then one day when we cut him off GWI, and he began trading with other countries and Russia and France got his oil, we hit him with GWII...

Liberators? That is the recent spin...it wasn't the old spin...

Hey I'll just pick one lie...from 2004...'Let me make it clear, we are not getting any wiretaps without a warrant. There are no warrantless wiretaps'...oh that wasnt against the Iraqi's....that was taking US freedoms away...oops.

Sadam killed over 300,000 people in his reign of 30 years. We have uncovered over 100 mass graves with a thousand or more bodies in them. Since our "invasion" in 2003, 35,000 have died, however the vast majority of the deaths has been by insurgent indiscriminant attacks.

I'm not sure what "permission" you believe the President of the United States needs to watch out for America's best interests. Perhaps the almighty United Nations? And who says we are not in the vicinity of Korea or Africa? Truth is certain things are kept secret for a reason, usually inorder for the operations to be successful.

Over 60% of the entire country was without electricity, potable water and a decent sewage system before we ever stepped in, while the good leader built his wonderous palaces and claimed to be the next Nebacanezzor. Now over 65% of the country has those systems operating. Where they aren't operating is in the three provinces dominated by Sunni factions, who refuse to sit at the table and negotiate. They and the insugents are the ones who keep blowing things up.

Saddam attacked the United States via the USS Stark in 17 May 1987 (allegedly during your proposed time that we were assisting Iraq fight Iran). No wonder we cut off assistance to the great president. We were also sick of what weapons he was using to "annhialate" Iran. Russia never got oil from Iraq. France and Germany were more than happy to get in bed with Saddam, and ignore what was going on. And while we are on the subject, Iran desicrated US territory and property, and took hostages for 444 days...for what? To show the world they were a power to be reconned with?

Paint it any color you wish. Iraq elected their own government representitives, and it was highly competitive. That hasn't happened in almost 50 years. The US and Britian and every coalition member made that happen.

I got news for you. There are laws on the US books that allow for warrantless wiretaps, warrantless searches, and warrantless confiscation of property, and "We the people" sanctioned it long ago. Hell, the Coast Guard's "military" personnel have been affecting warrantless searches, confiscation of property, terminating voyages and enforcing federal law on "civilians" since 3 August 1790, all thanks the the US Code and Code of Federal Regulations that we the people santioned and authorized.

I mentioned once before, it pays to dig deep to find the truth, instead of listening to the media spin its tale for the mindless entertainment of the masses, or to incite emotions for the puppeteers that pull its strings...

And please don't think I'm sitting back in my armchair safe and sound acting all high and mighty. I do have a personal interests in the goings on in the mideast, as well as high stakes to lose...and I consider my personal interests to be "priceless".

v/r

Q

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Q, I certainly hope and pray that your personal interests come back safe and sound.

I am one of the biggest pacifists, as well as one of the biggest anti-Bu****es, you will ever care to meet. With that said, I certainly support the troops - as individuals. Yes, they are over there killing - but hey, they're military, that's their job. Yes, Q, I know it's not their only job, but that is a large part of the job of a military force. Yes, they are running the risk of being killed themselves. One can argue that they have no business being over there in the first place. Maybe some (many?) of them are disillusioned and sick and tired of what they are doing there. But joining the military means agreeing to do what your commanding officer tells you to do, and not coming home before you are told you may go home. Now that they're there, they're stuck there, and stuck doing the job they're given. I'm sure that at least 98% signed up either because it was the best way they could see to better their future (or doesn't the military pay for your college education anymore?) or because they had an honest desire to help people in trouble. Whether their belief that they could help was based on misinformation and lies is, in their individual cases, beside the point.

No, I don't think the American military has any business being over there. Yes, I think the war was started in the interests of American businessmen and oil magnates. Yes, I think anybody killing anybody for any reason, under any circumstances, is shameful. But all of that is merely my own opinion. I want everybody to emerge from the Iraq war whole and healthy and unharmed, or failing that, as whole and healthy and unharmed as possible. And my prayers go out to the wounded (in body or spirit) and killed and their families on all sides.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

Q, I certainly hope and pray that your personal interests come back safe and sound.

ditto

The Pentagon estimates are 100-200,000 Iraqi's killed by coalition forces...this trip. This is not to mention those killed the last trip, or those that died of diseases due to our pinpointing sewer and water treatement facilites the last trip. Also our General has stated he was pretty pissed when he was told to tell those in the south we'd support them in an overthrow of Sadam and as they marched toward Bagdad, our men and arms and helicopters were told to turn around and head back to Kuwait...the slaughter of that 30,000+ by Sadam rests fully on our shoulders.

It was a shame that those hostages were taken in Iran...another US follie in trying to control the world...Iran had enough of our puppet dictator the shaw (no different than Sadam in terror and torture tactics) and ousted him. As long as we continue to foist up puppets like Noriega, Sadam, Osama, the Shaw, as long as we continue to try to control the world with the greenback and gun diplomacy and for the greenback...it'll be live by the sword die by the sword. And just like anyone fighting a foe that is bigger, the stronger, the more highly trained...and trying to control my life...I'm not going to go into the boxing match with you or march my little soldiers in pretty little lines...I'll get them with whatever I can find...to protect my family and friends.

Seek first to understand then to be understood.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

And they're called...Republicans!

Chris

Ouch.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

ditto

The Pentagon estimates are 100-200,000 Iraqi's killed by coalition forces...this trip. This is not to mention those killed the last trip, or those that died of diseases due to our pinpointing sewer and water treatement facilites the last trip. Also our General has stated he was pretty pissed when he was told to tell those in the south we'd support them in an overthrow of Sadam and as they marched toward Bagdad, our men and arms and helicopters were told to turn around and head back to Kuwait...the slaughter of that 30,000+ by Sadam rests fully on our shoulders.

It was a shame that those hostages were taken in Iran...another US follie in trying to control the world...Iran had enough of our puppet dictator the shaw (no different than Sadam in terror and torture tactics) and ousted him. As long as we continue to foist up puppets like Noriega, Sadam, Osama, the Shaw, as long as we continue to try to control the world with the greenback and gun diplomacy and for the greenback...it'll be live by the sword die by the sword. And just like anyone fighting a foe that is bigger, the stronger, the more highly trained...and trying to control my life...I'm not going to go into the boxing match with you or march my little soldiers in pretty little lines...I'll get them with whatever I can find...to protect my family and friends.

Seek first to understand then to be understood.

First off, the Pentagon does not keep tabs on civilian deaths in Iraq. Second I find it ironic that the way people place the death toll of civilians (who ever is estimating and reporting), on the US is to qualify the estimate by stating "Since the US invasion of Iraq in 2003..." (para).

Even so, your proposed estimate of 100,000-200,000 killed as a result of coalition forces' actions is not even close to the most anti-American media estimates.

Here is a break down (that I consider much more accurate, relatively speaking), of the death and injury toll in Iraq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasio...raq_casualties

Ugly as the numbers are, this is war, plain and simple.

Now as for fairness, here is the estimate and stats before and after Saddam:
http://www.stinkzone.com/cgi-bin/archives/000184.html

As you can see, the twisting is beautifully done. Life would have been better with Saddam because he has killed less per year in the last 30 years than coalition forces "are responsible for" per year, in the last 18 months...never mind the fact that Saddam had his own people executed at a rate of 25,000-50,000 per year, AND THERE WAS NO WAR.

As for the Shiite massacre after the first Gulf War. The good general forgot that the president of the US sent us over there to stop Iraq from overrunning Kuwait. We did that and stopped at the border. The Shiites wanted more, and began something without waiting for coalition forces to concur. They assumed the coalition forces would follow their lead, but no such promise was made. They were told not to do what they planned to do, but ignored that. This wasn't the "Bay of Pigs" all over again, not by a long shot.

The deaths of the Shiites in 1991 rest soley on their shoulders.

The Iran hostage situation was not the folly of the US, but the determination of Fundimentalist Muslim clerics who wanted power for themselves. Their idea of justice is Sharia Law, without the "law", only the punishment.

Men and women are equal under such a noble jurisprudence right? Right...

You presume that all of Iraq is being destroyed by our presence. Well let me give you "the rest of the story": http://www.mlrw.org/info_iraq-rest-of-story.html

And this one is from Amir Taheri, former executive director of Iran's largest Newspaper...(lol): http://www.commentarymagazine.com/ar...aid=12106023_1

Like I said, if you want the truth, you have got to DIG for it. I'm afraid some of us are only scratching the surface of the dirt, because we do not want to see truly what is beneath...it might alter our perception of reality a little bit, and that scares the hell out of most people.

my thoughts (for what they're worth)

v/r

Q