I have a question concerning Jesus.....

[Mus Zibii]

I have nothing to add, but 'well said'.

[didymus]

I know I'm coming into this thread late but I have something to contribute. Until I started to read what Jesus said and break it down into categories I couldn't get a clear idea of his teachings. I was always taught how to read the Bible and therefore presented all matters from a certain perspective.

First off, by breaking down what he said you'll get an idea of what he really said and what may have been added later by the church. If not looked at this way then it would lead one to say that Jesus contradicted himself at every turn. I don't believe he would have done that.

Shannon, your quote of Isaiah 7:14 needs clarification. In the original hebrew it didn't read that " the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son."
The word was "young woman"(in Hebrew almah). A young woman becoming pregnant is not the same as virginal conception.

[lunamoth]

I'm glad to see this thread resurface; there's quite a bit of interesting commentary going on here. Actually, not having read and reasearched all the roots of early Christianity and the "church fathers," gnostic or not, I can't really evaluate the origins of the Gospels and Christianity historically. However, it's interesting to me to see the sense of two religions, or a religion and a philosophy, being cobbled together to create what we know of today as Christianity.

There seems to be a conflict in Christianity between "what I believe" and "what I know." Some emphasize the teachings of Jesus, the Sermon on the mount, His fulfillment of the law.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5)

The emphasis above is on what we do, what we "know" to be the way to the Kingdom in our midst. It was very clear, I think. Jesus taught that we must do as He did, give up everything and follow Him. These are the teachings of Jesus and the emphasis is on His human side.

The other side of the coin is "what we believe."

16“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] (John 3, NIV)

The Gospel of John uses the word "believe" 50 times in the NIV translation (the word apprears 152 times in the entire OT + NT so a full third of the mentions of this word are made in this single Gospel). Believe Jesus is God the Son.

There are the teachings and parables of Jesus, and there is the Passion story. A practical religion, and a mystical religion. A religion of judgement and a religion of grace. A religion of works and a religion of faith. These ideas seem opposed to each other. How do we reconcile them? I think often we are tempted to focus on one and not on the other.

But Jesus was fully God and fully human. I really think those church fathers knew what they were doing when they would not give in to emphasizing just one aspect of Jesus over the other. I think it's brilliant that we have the four Gospels with all their conflicting details and different spins. Paul seems to be more like the Gospel of John, focusing on belief. If you look at James you don't see anything about believing in a resurrected Christ but you get a clear picture of the Way pointed out by Jesus. James is looking at the lifeboat while Paul and the Gospel of John are looking at the ocean.

I wish I could express this more clearly than I know I am doing. Would Christianity have survived as a religion if it didn't have both of these parts? The way to enter the Kingdom is to give up everything, even your life. Everything material, and the richer you are the more you have to let go. Spiritually, you have to die, and rise with Christ. Like in the parable of the rich man,

“With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.” (Mark 10, NIV)

We may dissect the origins of the Gospels and distill the words down to what Jesus may actually have said and weave together the myths that fleshed out the details of Jesus' life, but at the end of the day, what matters? To me it seems that the Spirit is at work in the world, that Person of the Trinity Whom we often seem to overlook, and I believe that not only in spite of, but through whatever mistakes and bumblings and outright power-grabs may have taken place throughout history, the Bible mercifully gives us a Christ who was not just man, not just God, but fully both.

Forgive my late night ramblings!

lunamoth

[didymus]

I differ that it doesn't matter what was really said. It is extremely important to know what was said and added to the Bible. People preach a message of eternal life and damnation from interpretations they get out of the Bible. If mistranslated or conveyed biasly to someone, it can lead to alot of unnecessary anguish. We need to know if Jesus indeed said, you have to beleive in me to go to heaven. I don't beleive he said that. Some would relegate me to the pits of eternal flames for that. They play God with the words they weild from the Bible and it is a deadly game to be playing if not fully understood.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by didymus

I differ that it doesn't matter what was really said. It is extremely important to know what was said and added to the Bible. People preach a message of eternal life and damnation from interpretations they get out of the Bible. If mistranslated or conveyed biasly to someone, it can lead to alot of unnecessary anguish. We need to know if Jesus indeed said, you have to beleive in me to go to heaven. I don't beleive he said that. Some would relegate me to the pits of eternal flames for that. They play God with the words they weild from the Bible and it is a deadly game to be playing if not fully understood.

Hi didymus, I wasn't trying to say that it doesn't matter what Jesus said, or that what He actually factually said to the best of our scholarly knowledge is not important. It was late so I let my rhetoric get away from me a bit. I also don't agree with the idea that it is a professed belief in Jesus as the Son, crucified, buried, and raised, that determines whether one "gets into heaven" (has an afterlife, eternal life) after our physical life is ended. I don't even really know what all of that means and even though I seem to be talking about it quite a bit lately I don't really dwell on it all that much.

I wrote some more but decided to erase it. Keep searching didymus. Questioning is the only way to learn and grow.

peace,
lunamoth

[didymus]

Thanks for the honesty Luna.

[Knowledge]

Hey Im new to this site, and I'd love to prove to the JW that Jesus is in fact God. Let me know that you're here so I can write back. Till then, to spark interest here's what Im brining to the table:

Jesus is not the father, nor is he the Holy Spirit. But, just like the other 2 persons in the Godhead, Jesus is God. Take away any of the 3 and there will be no God.

Later,

Knowledge

[didymus]

What's up knowledge, i think you were referring to me when you said JW. I'm not JW but I'll gladly discuss this issue with you. I can give you at least 15 passages where Jesus made a clear distinction between himself and God.

[Dor]

Of course you can Did, there is a clear distinction between the two of them. No one has ever denied that at all. And I can give you many more than 15 showing that Jesus is God.

[Conscience]

Yes, there are many instances where Jesus said he was the "Son of God." But, there are also instances where both Jesus, and scripture (Old and New Testament), show that Jesus is God the Creator. And you know what? He IS!

[didymus]

If I am standing in front of the IBM headquarters building, and a fellow employee unknowingly asks, "is this your building, do you own the building?"
Then I reply, "this building is NOT MY OWN, but it belongs to The ONE WHO EMPLOYS ME" this would clarify to the person asking that I am not the owner, i am just one of the workers.
I do not own the building(universe) the one I work for owns it

If I am at a gathering at a friends house, and a fellow guest unknowingly says "Is this your house?" I would reply "This is not my house but it is the house of the one who invited me"
this also would clarify to the fellow guest that again, I am not the owner of the house.

Jesus spoke in these terms repeatedly. Where does Jesus say that he is God?

[Conscience]

Here's a carsh course on who Jesus is, and the Godhead (Trinity).

Jesus sais he was God. Note: John 8:57-59

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Notice how the Jews picked up stones to kill him because he made himself to be the same I am that spoke to Moses.

The Bible says Jesus is God. Note: John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Notice that the Bible says the word was with God, and was God, and then the word became flesh.

Philippians 2:5-8 Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross.

The Godhead (Trinity)

God exists as a triune God. He has manifested himself in 3 different ways to relate to mankind. The Father is not the Son, or the Holy Spirit.Each person in the Godhead exist as the one same God, but as a seperate personality in the Godhead. If any one of the 3 persons was missing, there would be no God. God the father is a spirit. No man has seen him an lived. Mankind sined, and needed a perfect sacrifice (the sacrifices used by animals in the OT times was a precursa of God's coming Lamb). Jesus, who is God in human skin, is the lamb of God. He is the perfect sinless lamb that washes away the sins of the world. He came, and taught men to ONLY follow him, and by doing that, we would get to the father (God). Again, Jesus talked about the father. When Jesus left, he said he would send us the Comforter - the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit comes, he does comfort. But, beyond that, he testifies of Jesus being the truth. So there we have it - a really quick crash course of the Trinity. The Father sent his Son who came as a man to relate to mankind, and directed their attention to the father. Then, after the Son was gone, he sent the Holy Spirit, that proved the Son was telling the truth - that through the Son only, will we get to the father.

Perfect harmony!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by bruce

Now I'm a Jehovah Witness and I know "we" witnesses understand that people don't understand us because of the way we look at the bible.At one time I was a Baptist now forget about what church you belong and what you believe just look at this one verse and tell me what Jesus is saying in this verse.KJ 1611 edtion.John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her,touch me not for I am not yet accended to my Father ; but go to my brethen, and say unto them,I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God, and your God."Now by looking at what that verse says it tells me that Jesus's father is our father and that Jesus's God is our God.I can't see it any other way.It doesn't say Jesus is God or Jesus is our father it says Jesus's father is our father and Jesus's God is our God.This is from the King James 1611 edition and not The New World Translation of the Holy Scripitues.That verse is as simple as it gets and please I do not mean to offend or preach.

None taken. And welcome to CR If we take one passage, and build a world around it, what a small world we would have, no? We must take the Bible's entirety into context in order to get the big picture. There are so many points in the Bible that give us the ability to see the whole, not just in part.

For example: I am my father's son. I am also he, and he is in me. I have been told I am my father, a chip off the old block. Which of these are true, which are false, and what does it matter?

I guess the main theme of the NT is that "Jesus" Saves. Sticking to a "minor" point of contention seems to be a waste of energy and time (let alone bruised feelings and frustration).

that is my two cents.

v/r

Q

[Conscience]

Jesus is the Visible image of the Invisible God. Whoever sees him, has seen the father. No, no, Jesus isnt the father. But, he is God. The Godhead is so simple to understand, I dont see how people dont understand it. If we look at the Bible as a whole, we'll see God saying it clear as day. The OT for example, tells of who God was going to deal with sin, and the NT reveals how he did it. How did he do it? He made himself the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. This was the plan of God all along, to redeem that which was lost. This plan began BEFORE we was actually lost - before man sined - before Lucifer sined. This is God's way of fixing what he knew was going to be broken. It took perfect blood to do that, because there is NO remittion of sins without blood. Think about this for a moment:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was empty, a formless mass cloaked in darkness. And the Spirit of God was hovering over its surface. Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. Gen.1:1-3

That "light" could not have been the sun, moon, and stars. Why? Because they werent made until the 4th day. What was that light? Well, Jesus himself said that he is the light of the world.

Could it be true? Did God seperate himself way before anything was made, to fix what he knew would occure? Could the Word that "was with God", and the word that "is God," be the same word that came flesh, and dwelled among us?

[Quahom1]

God is not invisible. man is simply blind, deaf and dumb.


v/r

Q