I may be mistaken...

[China Cat Sunflower]

Ah, I figured it out!

[flowperson]

Hi Chris...just some little digital annoyances to agitate malcontents that we instituted while you were away. Again...welcome back.

flow....

[China Cat Sunflower]

I had the editor function set to Super Smart. Reset it to Dummy and everything works fine!

It's nice to see you as well!

I'm also thinking of structure in the Pythagorean sense of it being the music of the spheres. Archetypal structure to be sure, metaphysical too, but also real in the sense of vibrations of all kinds manifesting luminescence and sound at one pitch, planetary soundings at another octave, weather patterns at still another, and the interaction of gas particles at yet another. Into the mystery of these "things" man has poured his intellect and passion seeking understanding and co-creativity. We all want to play the really big organ, man!

Chris

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Chris,

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I understand what you're saying here Tao, I just want to put a different twist on it. I think that every enduring work of man bears within it's very structuring a reflection of what we're here referring to as God. If we acknowledge that the Ultimate God (whatever that might be) is above the interplay of force and form, perhaps we can also acknowledge that all human endeavor, as an exercise in harnessing force through the mechanism of form, is a supplication; an homage to the perceived Motionless Mover (whatever that is). This is, after all, our only available path toward that ineffable no-thing. Where I differ from some is that I believe that life was created to build and populate a world of things. While it may be God's job to be no-thing, it's my purpose to be a master of things. To live in and have dominion of the world of things; to perfect the way of things. In that sense all art and architecture are a divinely inspired structuring of a sublimely anthropomorphic nature. Chris

If someone else had made my post you refer to I would have responded in a very similar way to you

TE

[China Cat Sunflower]

Hi Juan,

I hope this isn't an unwanted interruption of this fine conversation betwixt you and Tao, but I want to ask something related to your excellent OP.

What truth? G-d? That to me seems the only definitive objective truth we have limited access to.

I read where you were discussing ancient people in the context of a continuity of human effort from earliest times through the present toward understanding what we might call the divine. It occurs to me that what the ancients were doing was essentially applied science. They were surely interested in the mysterious source of life. They wanted to know how and why things lived and died. Why animals possessed abilities they envied. Where the ancestors were. What caused natural processes and events. At some point we're talking about primitive animism and ancestor veneration as an adjunct to high science. Along comes cosmology and astrology, writing, the arts, polytheism, monotheism, imperial monotheism...vvvt, out to us.

Since our current high science and art traces back directly to the expressions of earliest man and his attempt to understand and record what he was learning, it's interesting to consider the question of what a pristine animism would look like. I mean, animism completely shorn of fluff and floof.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Hi Juan,

I hope this isn't an unwanted interruption of this fine conversation betwixt you and Tao, but I want to ask something related to your excellent OP.

What truth? G-d? That to me seems the only definitive objective truth we have limited access to.

I read where you were discussing ancient people in the context of a continuity of human effort from earliest times through the present toward understanding what we might call the divine. It occurs to me that what the ancients were doing was essentially applied science. They were surely interested in the mysterious source of life. They wanted to know how and why things lived and died. Why animals possessed abilities they envied. Where the ancestors were. What caused natural processes and events. At some point we're talking about primitive animism and ancestor veneration as an adjunct to high science. Along comes cosmology and astrology, writing, the arts, polytheism, monotheism, imperial monotheism...vvvt, out to us.

Since our current high science and art traces back directly to the expressions of earliest man and his attempt to understand and record what he was learning, it's interesting to consider the question of what a pristine animism would look like. I mean, animism completely shorn of fluff and floof.

Chris

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, MuslimWoman!

If I may first begin by joining Tao in complimenting you. Yours is a unique expression of your faith in my experience, and a pleasant reminder to me that there are sincere seekers everywhere. Thank you so much for joining CR, and for participating in this discussion!

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I believe each and every one of us is very important to G-d, not just one group or faith or colour or gender. If we were not important why would He send us so many Prophets (pbut)? Why give us so many chances, why not just scrap the whole idea at Adam and Eve (pbut) and write us off as a failure? That is not to say that I believe we, in ourselves, are important or are any more important than a cat or mouse. We are merely servants of G-d, as are all of His creations.

I agree.

What I sense may puzzle some is the scale of the vastness involved, particularly when considering the vastness of the cosmos. How can G-d possibly keep track of it all? I don't know. The how is so far beyond my ability to comprehend (and I have tried a time or two), that I simply don't bother anymore. I trust that somehow, some way, He keeps track of what concerns Him.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

God gave each scripture in human terms and in ways we could understand but of course He is able to create universes so how could we possibly even begin to fathom what He is? To take All Seeing and All Knowing literally would be to suggest eyes and ears and the limitations that brings. I agree with you completely, I also believe it is a warning to us that we will answer for everything we choose to do in this life.

Agreed! Considering humans of 1500, 2000, 2500, or even as much as 4 or 5 thousand years ago, had no direct understanding of something as eloquent as Quantum Physics (presuming on my part that Quantum Physics is an appropriate expression of the complexities that make up the natural universe). G-d of necessity had to speak in terms humans of that period of time were capable of understanding.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I used to teach nuclear, biological and chemical warfare in the military and believe me it is very hard to explain to people with no scientific background. You have to explain things in terms they can grasp, even though your explanations may not be strictly accurate but give the general idea. Yet this is a subject any human can, with the right education, understand. So what hope have we of explaining the completely unexplainable??

Cool! NBC warfare? I used to assist in teaching how to deal with the effects of NBC warfare during part of my stint in the military. I agree, so much of what was taught in the civilian sector was "dumbed down" to the lowest common denominator, which sadly made so much of the civil defense stuff seem ludicrous to a person trained in the military. Hiding under a desk isn't going to help save anybody, it merely gives the ignorant populace a semblance of hope that they can take some measure of protection against an overwhelming situation.

I can see some element of the same process in action pertaining to religious indoctrination. I use the concept of idolatry in my own mind when dealing with this...I hope this does not mistranslate. It seems to me that people by and large get caught up in idolizing their religious indoctrination and lose sight of the objective, that is, G-d. I can't help but see where G-d has provided discretionary warnings in the various major religious teachings against this problem, yet it persists. We want to hold our faith path more than use it to reach our goal. The path itself is not nearly as important to me as reaching the destination. I am not worried about paving my path with gold, I don't care if I travel by sports car, horseback, camel or foot. I just want to get to where I feel I need to be. The path is my tool (or set of tools) to get there, little more.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I have no doubt that G-d has created beings other than the ones on earth. The Quran refers to the judgement of "all the worlds" and I think one can safely assume that G-d does not intend judging barren lumps of rock and gas. I also think it is very arrogant of humans to think we are the be all and end all of life.

Cool! I was not aware the Quran mentioned this (I am very naive when it comes to the Quran). I don't know if we are unique in the universe, or if there may be others. If there are others, I presume matters unfold for them as they should, just as they do (for the most part) for us.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Interesting idea Juantoo but if I could see into your mind what would I see as your image of G-d? If we cannot imagine G-d would telepathy help? Any image we hold of G-d is purely our attempt to understand what is impossible to understand and would be limited to our understanding of things.

Not being telepathic, I can only surmise. I would think that a purely telepathic communication would allow you to fully grasp my intent with all of the nuance, and likewise from you to me. Of course, that would also mean no secrets or privacy between us.

Shalom!

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Flow!

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hi Chris...just some little digital annoyances to agitate malcontents that we instituted while you were away. Again...welcome back.

Shhhhhhh! .o .o ... o. o. trade secrets, can't be giving them away...

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Welcome back once again, and thanks for your input!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I think that every enduring work of man bears within it's very structuring a reflection of what we're here referring to as God. If we acknowledge that the Ultimate God (whatever that might be) is above the interplay of force and form, perhaps we can also acknowledge that all human endeavor, as an exercise in harnessing force through the mechanism of form, is a supplication; an homage to the perceived Motionless Mover (whatever that is). This is, after all, our only available path toward that ineffable no-thing. Where I differ from some is that I believe that life was created to build and populate a world of things. While it may be God's job to be no-thing, it's my purpose to be a master of things. To live in and have dominion of the world of things; to perfect the way of things. In that sense all art and architecture are a divinely inspired structuring of a sublimely anthropomorphic nature.

Very astute observation. The one elective class I dearly wanted to take and by conflict of scheduling missed out on was Humanities. Glutton for study that I am, I borrowed a friend's text and read every page concerning art and architecture in antiquity, from Sumeria to Rome and into Gothic Europe. What I found resonant throughout was what you specifically suggest here.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I'm also thinking of structure in the Pythagorean sense of it being the music of the spheres. Archetypal structure to be sure, metaphysical too, but also real in the sense of vibrations of all kinds manifesting luminescence and sound at one pitch, planetary soundings at another octave, weather patterns at still another, and the interaction of gas particles at yet another. Into the mystery of these "things" man has poured his intellect and passion seeking understanding and co-creativity. We all want to play the really big organ, man!

I remember you touching on this when you were here last, but I don't recall you expanding the concept. I would dearly love to see you do so, if not too much trouble.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I hope this isn't an unwanted interruption of this fine conversation betwixt you and Tao, but I want to ask something related to your excellent OP.

No interruption, you know you are welcome to join in.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I read where you were discussing ancient people in the context of a continuity of human effort from earliest times through the present toward understanding what we might call the divine. It occurs to me that what the ancients were doing was essentially applied science. They were surely interested in the mysterious source of life. They wanted to know how and why things lived and died. Why animals possessed abilities they envied. Where the ancestors were. What caused natural processes and events. At some point we're talking about primitive animism and ancestor veneration as an adjunct to high science. Along comes cosmology and astrology, writing, the arts, polytheism, monotheism, imperial monotheism...vvvt, out to us.

Since our current high science and art traces back directly to the expressions of earliest man and his attempt to understand and record what he was learning, it's interesting to consider the question of what a pristine animism would look like. I mean, animism completely shorn of fluff and floof.

Yours is a valid point and question. Not having been there (that I remember, anyway) a lot is speculation, but not without merit. "Pristine animism" might be a bit hard to pin down, but there are extensions that persist into our modern era such as the San Bushmen, Australian Aborigines and Native cultures of North and South America that give anthropologists clues. I agree that science owes its heritage to alchemy, even earlier to something like Taoism, and earlier still to something like animism. In that, it seems, such as the cave paintings and Venus figurines were attempts to manipulate nature. Even within the concept of spell casting in certain forms of Paganism there is the intent to manipulate nature. As Tao suggested earlier, thoughts are forms to some, and it is difficult to deny that any creation of humans begins first with a thought. In modern settings, these thoughts are believed to be sourced from the person that thinks them. But to some groups even today, but I think far more prevalent in times past, thoughts are believed to be derived from outside the person. In Christian parlance, it is the whisper in the ear. But to an animist (I speculate) the thought was Divine, in whatever sense Divine was perceived.

It would be easy to equate the development of pre-historic industry with elemental science...but I suspect that it would of necessity have to preclude the spiritual element. IF, and I realize this is speculation, we can use current examples of animism to draw essential presumptions, then there must be a spiritual element accounted for...i.e. spirit quest, communing with the fathers, astral projection, whatever choice of terms one is most comfortable with. I seriously doubt that something so profound and yet so enigmatic as spirit quest could be imagined or invented for sheer manipulative purposes. Not to mention, there are too many multiple examples, within and across cultural boundaries, to make it a unique invention. Which is one reason I believe the cave paintings and such to have a spiritual connection to them. As you alluded to concerning architecture, it is one of man's ways of associating with the harmonic of the Divine.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

If I may first begin by joining Tao in complimenting you. Yours is a unique expression of your faith in my experience, and a pleasant reminder to me that there are sincere seekers everywhere. Thank you so much for joining CR, and for participating in this discussion!

as salaam aleykum Juantoo

Thank you so much and I have to say I love CR, I have met such interesting people here and am learning so much about how other people view their faith. Other than the odd (do I mean occasional or wierd?) one or two, people here have been respectful, open minded and very kind. So thank you everybody.

It is a big issue in Islam at the moment - "where are the moderate voices?". There are millions and millions of us but our quiet little voices are always drowned out by gunfire and ranting loonies. Many Imams are calling now for the moderate (peace loving) Muslims to make their voices heard. Have you seen Dauers thread about Salaam Shalom radio - it makes me want to sing, dance and cry all at the same time because the "quiet" voices are finally standing up to be counted (perhaps in small numbers and ways but it will, inshallah, grow).

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I trust that somehow, some way, He keeps track of what concerns Him.

Absolutely mind boggling isn't it! Like you I simply trust that G-d has it all under control.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Hiding under a desk isn't going to help save anybody, it merely gives the ignorant populace a semblance of hope that they can take some measure of protection against an overwhelming situation.

Sorry, may I point out your error here?! Hiding under the desk doesn't help, you have to close your eyes and put your arms under your body - that's what saves you. Bloody ludicrous isn't it but as you say telling people the truth would not help them in any way. It's like the star wars program, yeah honestly we can just shoot them down, really we can we have glitch free computers and the fallout will have no effect. The one I always loved was the sniff test. I always told squaddies to be really nice to the senior ranks just in case they needed people to perform the sniff test. Can you imagine if you were picked - my answer would contain a number of unladylike four letter words.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

It seems to me that people by and large get caught up in idolizing their religious indoctrination and lose sight of the objective, that is, G-d. I can't help but see where G-d has provided discretionary warnings in the various major religious teachings against this problem, yet it persists. We want to hold our faith path more than use it to reach our goal.

Is it possible to agree with someone 1000%? My hubby and I had a conversation about Islam and the issue of dogs, for about 2 hours last night. He must have said "the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said" over 50 times and not once did he say "Allah said". When I pointed this out to him he accused me of being disrespectful to the Prophet. I pointed out that the Quran states very clearly that the Jews and Christians went astray for this reason, to varying degrees, they replaced G-d with dogma. Don't get me wrong, I love the Prophet so much but I worship G-d and it is to Him I look for guidance. Really, how many times does G-d have to tell us this??????

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Cool! I was not aware the Quran mentioned this (I am very naive when it comes to the Quran). I don't know if we are unique in the universe, or if there may be others. If there are others, I presume matters unfold for them as they should, just as they do (for the most part) for us.

Sorry am not a big fan of copy & paste but I don't want people to think this is one of my own interpreations. The following is an explanation of verse 1.2 of the Quran, from the site theholybook.org.

1.2 All praise and gratitude6 (whoever gives them to whomever for whatever reason and in whatever way from the first day of creation until eternity) are for God, the Lord7 of the worlds,8

8. (left out the bits where he discusses the arabic roots of words)

The "worlds" are also classified as the world of spirits, this world, the immaterial world between this and the next (al-‘Ālam al-Barzakh), and the eternal world of the Hereafter.
The "worlds" may also be taken to refer to different domains or "kingdoms" within this earthly world, and other worlds beyond this earth.

All translations refer to the plurality of worlds:

001.002YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

The Quran is a very surprising book.

Salaam
MW

[China Cat Sunflower]

Hi Juan. Thank you for your kind response. I'll not quote you since I'm sure you know what you said.

On vibrational structure: It's really pretty simple, at least in principle. We live in linear time. I know people like to muse that our sense of time is entirely a subjective creation, but it really isn't. We discovered that dividing days up into 24 hour periods worked out well, but we didn't make the length of a day- the sun did. Anyway, if you put your finger down on the middle of a guitar string you get a note which is double the frequency of the original- the first octave. Since all wave functions, which is what vibrations are, are measured by the frequency of their oscillations in time, the standard of measure begins with a base frequency 1:1 which is equal to the length of a solar day. The first octave would halve that into two twelve hour periods: day and night essentially. Keep halving and at the 21st octave you arrive at the lowest note on a piano keyboard: G. That's 24 hertz (times per second). At the 65th octave we're entering the frequency band of visible color, and we see the color orange-red.

I don't want to get all into music theory because my grasp of it is quite limited, but each primary tone contains within it's vibration the entire set of partial overtones that make up its scale. Within that set certain frequencies resonate better than others. The more points of intersection a partial tone has with the prime tone the less energy it takes to transmit it. There is a set of partial overtones that goes with the earth day frequency. These have been measured as electromagnetic impulses which are continuously being formed in the earth's atmosphere. They occur in the frequency range of 4,000 to 50,000 hertz, and are placed at points of harmonic convergence with the prime frequency of the earth day period.

So, the basic idea is that there is this harmonic vibrational structure which is not the least bit metaphysical. It's about the closest thing we have to a bridge between the classical and quantum aspects of reality.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

I think it's a mistake to transfer our sense of God, or the Divine onto ancient people. Spirit quests and ancestor worship are relatively recent developments. We can only speculate upon the reasons prehistoric peoples had for making cave paintings and such, but we can say for certain that they didn't posses a monotheistic God concept. This gets into the very slippery slope of what post modern philosophy calls "nostalgia for the lost referential." It is a yearning for there to be a prime archetype somewhere in the concrete past that corresponds to our sense of the pristine ideal.

Chris

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, MuslimWoman!

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Thank you so much and I have to say I love CR, I have met such interesting people here and am learning so much about how other people view their faith. Other than the odd (do I mean occasional or wierd?) one or two, people here have been respectful, open minded and very kind. So thank you everybody.

Actually, I think we have our share of odd, occasional, and weird...but that's alright.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

It is a big issue in Islam at the moment - "where are the moderate voices?". There are millions and millions of us but our quiet little voices are always drowned out by gunfire and ranting loonies. Many Imams are calling now for the moderate (peace loving) Muslims to make their voices heard. Have you seen Dauers thread about Salaam Shalom radio - it makes me want to sing, dance and cry all at the same time because the "quiet" voices are finally standing up to be counted (perhaps in small numbers and ways but it will, inshallah, grow).

I am very grateful to hear your moderate voice stand up to be heard.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Sorry, may I point out your error here?! Hiding under the desk doesn't help, you have to close your eyes and put your arms under your body - that's what saves you. Bloody ludicrous isn't it but as you say telling people the truth would not help them in any way. It's like the star wars program, yeah honestly we can just shoot them down, really we can we have glitch free computers and the fallout will have no effect. The one I always loved was the sniff test. I always told squaddies to be really nice to the senior ranks just in case they needed people to perform the sniff test. Can you imagine if you were picked - my answer would contain a number of unladylike four letter words.

I think you will find I agree.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Is it possible to agree with someone 1000%? My hubby and I had a conversation about Islam and the issue of dogs, for about 2 hours last night. He must have said "the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said" over 50 times and not once did he say "Allah said". When I pointed this out to him he accused me of being disrespectful to the Prophet. I pointed out that the Quran states very clearly that the Jews and Christians went astray for this reason, to varying degrees, they replaced G-d with dogma. Don't get me wrong, I love the Prophet so much but I worship G-d and it is to Him I look for guidance. Really, how many times does G-d have to tell us this??????

Yes, I do find it interesting among Christians of my acquaintance how this same scenario plays out..."once saved, always saved," "all you've got to do is believe!," "works won't get you to heaven..." It seems to me so ironic how many of these same people expressing these things have little problem with dealing deceptively with others..."oh, that's OK, all I gotta do is say a prayer of forgiveness and I'll be sparkling clean again..." I really, really don't think it works that way. We will reap the reaction of our actions we sow. We might gain forgiveness...provided we are sincerely attempting not to make (or continue) the same mistake, but we will still bear the consequences of our actions. The alcoholic will deal with the liver problems he brings upon himself...even if he may be forgiven of his actions. The divorcee will deal with the repercussions of multiple lifetime relationships, including monetary and emotional, forgiven or not. Sometimes the repercussions are not even the fault of the individual...a child born out of wedlock ends up (rightly or wrongly) bearing the accusations and indignations of the self-righteous.

We are warned repeatedly of these things...yet it seems a common (mis-)teaching that the natural physical laws of "what goes around, comes around" can be circumvented by a little prayer from an unrepentent heart and a little money in an offering plate...

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Sorry am not a big fan of copy & paste but I don't want people to think this is one of my own interpreations. The following is an explanation of verse 1.2 of the Quran, from the site theholybook.org.

1.2 All praise and gratitude6 (whoever gives them to whomever for whatever reason and in whatever way from the first day of creation until eternity) are for God, the Lord7 of the worlds,8

8. (left out the bits where he discusses the arabic roots of words)

The "worlds" are also classified as the world of spirits, this world, the immaterial world between this and the next (al-‘Ālam al-Barzakh), and the eternal world of the Hereafter.
The "worlds" may also be taken to refer to different domains or "kingdoms" within this earthly world, and other worlds beyond this earth.

All translations refer to the plurality of worlds:

001.002YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

The Quran is a very surprising book.

Thank you for this! I have no doubt the Quran is a very surprising book, it has done much to influence so many!

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

On vibrational structure: It's really pretty simple, at least in principle. We live in linear time. I know people like to muse that our sense of time is entirely a subjective creation, but it really isn't. We discovered that dividing days up into 24 hour periods worked out well, but we didn't make the length of a day- the sun did. Anyway, if you put your finger down on the middle of a guitar string you get a note which is double the frequency of the original- the first octave. Since all wave functions, which is what vibrations are, are measured by the frequency of their oscillations in time, the standard of measure begins with a base frequency 1:1 which is equal to the length of a solar day. The first octave would halve that into two twelve hour periods: day and night essentially. Keep halving and at the 21st octave you arrive at the lowest note on a piano keyboard: G. That's 24 hertz (times per second). At the 65th octave we're entering the frequency band of visible color, and we see the color orange-red.

OK, cool! I had heard some vague references in this general direction before, usually dealing with Nicola Tesla, submarine communication and weather control... The other context in which I saw reference to this was the closing of the famous interview of Joseph Campbell by Bill Moyers, in which some (Buddhist?) monks were chanting the "Aum...", and it was stated pretty emphatically that it was done in harmony with the vibration of the earth (or was it universe?, I've forgotten).

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I don't want to get all into music theory because my grasp of it is quite limited, but each primary tone contains within it's vibration the entire set of partial overtones that make up its scale. Within that set certain frequencies resonate better than others. The more points of intersection a partial tone has with the prime tone the less energy it takes to transmit it. There is a set of partial overtones that goes with the earth day frequency. These have been measured as electromagnetic impulses which are continuously being formed in the earth's atmosphere. They occur in the frequency range of 4,000 to 50,000 hertz, and are placed at points of harmonic convergence with the prime frequency of the earth day period.

Hmmm, harmonics and vibrations...I wonder what association with prime and root numbers? Being neither a very good musician nor mathematician, I don't know how well I can convey my thought. Base 12 numerical sequences have more evenly divided subsets compared with base 10 (which is essentially the difference between Sumerian / Babylonian numeral systems and our own present day Indo-European system). Even "pi" seems mystical to the uninitiated, yet it is a natural expression. (I am drawn back in memory of a PBS show about Einstein and the Theory of Relativity, and how pi was a natural consequence of measuring the effect of gravity on a ball falling into a pit of sand.)

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

So, the basic idea is that there is this harmonic vibrational structure which is not the least bit metaphysical. It's about the closest thing we have to a bridge between the classical and quantum aspects of reality.

I'm not certain I am willing to fully surrender the metaphysical with this observation though. Quite the contrary...it could as easily be that this "harmonic vibrational structure" allows for the metaphysical to interact to some degree with the material plane. A lot I would surmise depends on what frequency the metaphysical operates on, and what harmonics can be achieved.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I think it's a mistake to transfer our sense of God, or the Divine onto ancient people.

I agree, when considering the more modern "traditional, anthropomorphic" view of G-d.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Spirit quests and ancestor worship are relatively recent developments.

Here I must respectfully disagree. These may be more modern terminology, but as I pointed out, the words used are not important...the concept of communing with the grandfathers is pretty doggone universal across indigenous cultures and traditions. There is an old movie I like, I watched again the other night. "The Serpent and the Rainbow." I realize this is a "Hollywood" insight that is probably not completely factually true. But it is an interesting look into a culture that is generally "taboo" and "off-limits." Haitian Voodun. To a person such as myself with no real world experience with the occult (and no legitimate desire to dabble), my basis for understanding is limited by my own sense of decorum. Even so, I cannot deny the importance of "spirit" among what "modern, civilized" cultures might consider "backwards" or "undeveloped." It seems to me that one of the first things "we" let go of in our quest for civilation is the spirit world. (This is a generalization, I realize that many cultures that do partake in spirit quest consider themselves civilized, and look with dismay at cultures that consider themselves civilized without spirit quest yet brutalize the land and nature and each other without conscience. Ironic, no?) In short, I don't think we can dismiss so readily that people of prehistory did not participate in spirit quest, and that is not me superimposing my view upon their culture, but looking at the social evolution of these matters.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

We can only speculate upon the reasons prehistoric peoples had for making cave paintings and such, but we can say for certain that they didn't posses a monotheistic God concept. This gets into the very slippery slope of what post modern philosophy calls "nostalgia for the lost referential." It is a yearning for there to be a prime archetype somewhere in the concrete past that corresponds to our sense of the pristine ideal.

Agreed. Which is why I specifically avoided doing this in my assessments.

[Tao_Equus]

Hi China,

I found your post most interesting and inspiring. Resonance and sound fill the universe, even the Big Bang has its echo drifting in our bandwidths. The celestial harmony however, to our ears at least, is a cacophony of superfluous noise. Not to say I give it no value, for it is interesting to listen to the so called 'background noise' and it certainly makes me long for and find a place in a much bigger picture than I can without....
The ratios do seem important to us, our ears certainly appreciate certain ratios, bpm's or whatever. Some sounds, natural or man made just seem to lift us while others take us down. It's a poorly understood phenomenon. The sound you get in most cathedrals for example is quite unique, and the ratios of space are more or less uniformly adapted to take advantage of this. And as many were constructed before modern accoustical statistical knowledge was ever dreamt of, its a remarkable feat of both thought and engineering.... or sublime good luck... that we see this.

I have to agree with Juantoo that your belief that we cannot associate our modern thinking with ancients to be untrue. The most apparent example to myself being the native Australian concept of the Dreamtime. This is a non-monotheist appreciation of the connectivity of all things in all times in all places. Its an ancient quantum theory. I think the Tao to be similar too. I will try at some point soon to expand and provide references on this soon over on the Zero Point thread.

Regards

TE