identifying...Babylon the great

[paganprophet]

Priests and scribes of Judah wrote that. They wrote it and it promotes their tribe and their tribal god. It's not truth but tribal propaganda.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, paganprophet!

Originally Posted by paganprophet

The reference in Revelation to Babylon the Great is to Babylon because it was while priests and writers of the Torah, Tanakh, and Talmud compilations were in their Babylonian Exile period that they picked up and polluted the story of God with both Zoroastrian dualism and the domination of one tribe of Israel, Judah, over all the rest with the resulting Bible heavily favoring Judah's people over all the rest of humankind.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

Priests and scribes of Judah wrote that. They wrote it and it promotes their tribe and their tribal god. It's not truth but tribal propaganda.

I am thinking your history is a bit skewed here. By the time of the Babylonian exile, all that was left was the tribe of Judah, half of Levi and the remnant of Benjamin; in other words, what is classically called the Jews. There were no "all the rest" left to assume dominion over! The "other tribes" were already disbursed a couple of hundred years before. I do hope the remainder of your own propaganda, ooops, prophecy, is at least historically accurate.

It seems there is a bit of neglect concerning the blessings bestowed on each of the tribes by their father Jacob as well. What was the blessing bestowed on Judah again? Oh, that's right, the blessings weren't really written until a couple hundred years after the other tribes were carried off by the Assyrians, which means the whole Torah is a fabrication, not only from Solomon's time, but from Nebuchadnezzar's? Am I reading you correctly? Moses never existed? The period of slavery symbolically remembered every year by Passover never happened? The 613 laws are a sadistic afterthought by a crooked clergy? Is this what your vision implies?

BTW, are you aware that some people have been cured of horrible diseases, by sugar pills? The human mind with a bit of suggestion can be a powerful thing...

[paganprophet]

What happened to all those Hebrews then who weren't members of the tribe of Judah? The Assyrians aren't recorded as genociding them, only carting off prominent citizens to Babylon. What happened to them?

Hebrews were called "Jews" after their Babylonian Captivity because that's when the priests and scribes of Judah took control of all the Israelites also formerly known as Hebrews.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by paganprophet

What happened to all those Hebrews then who weren't members of the tribe of Judah? The Assyrians aren't recorded as genociding them, only carting off prominent citizens to Babylon. What happened to them?

Hebrews were called "Jews" after their Babylonian Captivity because that's when the priests and scribes of Judah took control of all the Israelites also formerly known as Hebrews.

Huh? The Land of Israel split into two kingdoms well before that. The one kingdom was called Israel, and the other kingdom, "Judah". The kingdom of Israel was scattered to the four corners of the earth, while Judah, hung around a bit longer.

When Babylon "carted off" the best and brightest, they were eventually let go, and allowed to go back home.

The term "Jew" was specific to those from the tribe of Judah. The term Israelite, was used to identify all tribes of Israel as a nation. Only Judah, survived as a viable tribe within the land of Israel/Palestine, until 70 ACE (AD). Then, the Romans scattered them as well.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, paganprophet!

Thank you for your response!

Originally Posted by paganprophet

What happened to all those Hebrews then who weren't members of the tribe of Judah?

Ah, the 64 thousand dollar question! These are known to history as the ten lost tribes. Elsewhere here I have dropped the little I have heard, but it is difficult at best to track them down. Some say that some of them became among the Barbaric tribes of Europe that gave Rome fits for so long. Others suggest a possible Celtic tie with at least two of the lost tribes (Ephraim and Mannasseh) and the British Isles. The tribe of Dan was outcast by the brother tribes even before the split post Solomon, and there is suggestion they founded Sparta, among others. There are place names through much of continental Europe that bear the name Dan. But there is nothing definitive to back any of this, just a lot of folk tradition and speculation.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

The Assyrians aren't recorded as genociding them, only carting off prominent citizens to Babylon. What happened to them?

Assyria and Babylon are two completely different regional superpowers. Assyria's "MO" if you will, was to scatter their captured subjects across the land to dilute their ability to draw on traditional cultural ties and politics to reform and pose an internal threat to their subjugators. The ten tribes have lost their identity, and even now do not realize their own cultural heritage (by and large).

Think in terms of Assyria as Iran, and Babylon as Iraq.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

Hebrews were called "Jews" after their Babylonian Captivity because that's when the priests and scribes of Judah took control of all the Israelites also formerly known as Hebrews.

The Hebrews carried into Babylonian captivity were called Jews after the Babylonian captivity because the tribe of Judah is what was carried into captivity by Babylon. The Hebrews that compose the remaining 10 tribes (Levi and the remnant of Benjamin are included in Judah) were lost to history, and by the time of Judah's capture were well into the process of losing their identity.

Ever hear of the Samaritans? As in the parable of the Good Samaritan? The Samaritans were a minor fraction of the House of Israel carried away by Assyria and scattered to the four winds. Which is why the Samaritans were held in such low esteem in Jesus' day. The Samaritans were Hebrews, but they were not called Jews.

[juantoo3]

Bump, wasn't showing after this afternoon's glitch.

[mee]

As i mentioned before, many things are happening in the Lords day, and the book of revelation is being revealed and uncovered, we are in the Lords day since 1914 when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment . by 1919 Babylon the Great had fallen, opening the way for God’s people to be released and restored, in one day as it were, to their land of spiritual prosperity. (Isaiah 66:8) By that year, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, the Greater Darius and the Greater Cyrus, had maneuvered matters so that false religion could no longer keep a hold on Jehovah’s people. No more could it prevent them from serving Jehovah and making known to all who might hear that harlotlike Babylon the Great is doomed and the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty is at hand!—Isaiah 45:1-4; Daniel 5:30, 31. yes its all happening to Gods people . pure worship has been restored. spiritual israel and the great crowd are in a spiritual paradise, cant wait for the phisical paradise also . its all happening in this time of the end . let him who has ears hear what the spirit says to the congregations.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

As i mentioned before, many things are happening in the Lords day, and the book of revelation is being revealed and uncovered, we are in the Lords day since 1914 when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment . by 1919 Babylon the Great had fallen, opening the way for God’s people to be released and restored, in one day as it were, to their land of spiritual prosperity. (Isaiah 66:8) By that year, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, the Greater Darius and the Greater Cyrus, had maneuvered matters so that false religion could no longer keep a hold on Jehovah’s people. No more could it prevent them from serving Jehovah and making known to all who might hear that harlotlike Babylon the Great is doomed and the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty is at hand!—Isaiah 45:1-4; Daniel 5:30, 31. yes its all happening to Gods people . pure worship has been restored. spiritual israel and the great crowd are in a spiritual paradise, cant wait for the phisical paradise also . its all happening in this time of the end . let him who has ears hear what the spirit says to the congregations.

Well, at least the Mayan calendar is a bit more specific. The beginning of the end comes on 21 December 2012...

Wait a minute...Babylon the great has fallen? Somebody better tell the Roman Catholic church, the Pope and the city of Rome of that little bit of trivia...

The only "city" that fell in 1919 was Berlin, and the country of Germany at large.

The "spirit" can't say anything, it isn't a person Mee, just a manifestaion of force; you said so yourself, many times.

I honestly try to follow your logic and reasoning...but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.

I'm certain that God is coming back...I just don't know when, and He specfically states we aren't to worry about it, just be ready and aware when the time comes...

Like my dad once advised me...Living for tomorrow, means we miss what is going on today. And twenty four hours is about all we really get (sometimes not even that).

Moral of that story is, every breath you take, give thanks to God, and help your neighbor, if and when you can...

v/r

Q

[paganprophet]

You're assuming that the Bible's history reflects real history. Those tribes of Israel..you need to step beyond the Bible and do some research on Near Eastern history to find out for yourself that ancient biblical writers confused places with people, nations with people, and gods with people, and didn't tell the truth as it really was.

E.g. Asher wasn't an Israelite tribe but the god of Assyria. Gad too is another pagan god, a goat god I think as the headwaters of the Jordan flow out of Baal Gad spring, dedicated to a Pan-like goat god.

Judah scribes never told you that even the word "Benjamin" has nothing to do with Abrahamic monotheism nor does it mean a ravenous wolf as in the Genesis description--it refers directly to the ancient worship of Yamm, the Canaanite sea and river god of judgment. "Ben"= "Sons of" Yamm.

So the history you've accepted as real includes Israelite monotheistic tribes named after pagan gods and I think they included pagan believers as well. These tribes didn't disappear-they were part of the Canaanite pagans to which the Israelites also belonged before the fall of Canaan to Egypt.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by paganprophet

You're assuming that the Bible's history reflects real history. Those tribes of Israel..you need to step beyond the Bible and do some research on Near Eastern history to find out for yourself that ancient biblical writers confused places with people, nations with people, and gods with people, and didn't tell the truth as it really was.

E.g. Asher wasn't an Israelite tribe but the god of Assyria. Gad too is another pagan god, a goat god I think as the headwaters of the Jordan flow out of Baal Gad spring, dedicated to a Pan-like goat god.

Judah scribes never told you that even the word "Benjamin" has nothing to do with Abrahamic monotheism nor does it mean a ravenous wolf as in the Genesis description--it refers directly to the ancient worship of Yamm, the Canaanite sea and river god of judgment. "Ben"= "Sons of" Yamm.

So the history you've accepted as real includes Israelite monotheistic tribes named after pagan gods and I think they included pagan believers as well. These tribes didn't disappear-they were part of the Canaanite pagans to which the Israelites also belonged before the fall of Canaan to Egypt.

Actually I assume nothing. You seem to presume however, that you have the historical accuracy that others lack.

Hebrew for example is specific in it distinction between that which is of Israel, and what is of foreign origins. Benjamin, does in fact mean "ravenous wolf". Ben/yamm, was pronounced "Bunyimm, or Bunyan", and not by the Hebrew people. Hebrews pronounced Benjamin as "Benyamin". The two words are distinct, and hold distinctly different meanings. And they are not of the same language.

v/r

Q

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, paganprophet!

Originally Posted by paganprophet

You're assuming that the Bible's history reflects real history. Those tribes of Israel..you need to step beyond the Bible and do some research on Near Eastern history to find out for yourself that ancient biblical writers confused places with people, nations with people, and gods with people, and didn't tell the truth as it really was.

You wouldn't be moving the goalposts now, would you? While there might be a bit of wiggle room pertaining to history during the time of Moses and before, the history from the time of Solomon on is generally held to be fairly reliable by scholars, at least as reliable as any other sources from that period of time. So let us not conflate the two. There is historic time, which to this point you have been convoluting, and there is mythic time, of which now you are attempting to equate and confuse.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

E.g. Asher wasn't an Israelite tribe but the god of Assyria. Gad too is another pagan god, a goat god I think as the headwaters of the Jordan flow out of Baal Gad spring, dedicated to a Pan-like goat god.

Judah scribes never told you that even the word "Benjamin" has nothing to do with Abrahamic monotheism nor does it mean a ravenous wolf as in the Genesis description--it refers directly to the ancient worship of Yamm, the Canaanite sea and river god of judgment. "Ben"= "Sons of" Yamm.

Whether or not these translational issues may be true is irrelevant to the names of the tribes. Think of it this way, how many Charlies do you know? Let's see, there's your brother (or uncle or other close relative), your neighbor, your best buddy in high school, your favorite teacher, the guy at the butcher shop, the guy at the tire store...and Charles Manson. Even if your brother or any of these guys actually was named after Charlie Manson, they are not Charles Manson.

In other words, so what?

Originally Posted by paganprophet

So the history you've accepted as real includes Israelite monotheistic tribes named after pagan gods and I think they included pagan believers as well. These tribes didn't disappear-they were part of the Canaanite pagans to which the Israelites also belonged before the fall of Canaan to Egypt.

Suggesting Israel was Canaanitish is a bit disingenuous, in that #1, Israel didn't even exist yet except for the father of many nations Abraham (*many nations besides Israel and Islam*), and #2, you just got done saying how Biblical history is inaccurate. Either there is a remote hint of historical accuracy and that Abraham was called to leave the vicinity of Canaan (and the pagans that lived there), or else someone is mixing up various periods of history in an effort to mislead those who haven't looked at the historical timeline or followed the story from beginning to end. Personally, I am satisfied that there is sufficient historical veracity even if the details might be somewhat off. The 12 tribes are all mentioned again in the New Testament book of Revelations, minus Dan who was already ostracized. In Revelations the two half tribes are given full tribe status. Perhaps not any sufficient kind of verification for someone looking to dismiss the Bible, but to me it serves as a further witness to the veracity of the 12 tribes. Even so, I don't believe we are going to begin setting our calendars by the blessings bestowed on the 12 patriarchal brothers...perhaps there is some degree of metaphor and allegory, embellishment and mythos. I don't see where that means Judaism (and by extension Christianity) should start throwing their babies out with the bathwater.

[paganprophet]

The baby, baby Jesus, will be ok, but the bathwater goes down the drain along with other religious mythologies where gods and goddesses descend to mate with humans to produce the royal lineages.

There is so much knowledge God is resurrecting in our times that overturns all the Abrahamic myths it's hard to know where to begin to unravel the twisted threads of history and mythology.

For example, Yahweh, tribal god of the Israelites, started off life as Yamm, Canaanite god of the sea and rivers and judgment. And arch-enemy of Baal, a war that Yahweh continues all through the Jewish epic.

Originally God Most High was the Canaanite highest god, EL Elyon. Israelites were one of the tribes in the greater Canaan confederacy of tribal kingdoms. Hebrew is a dialect of the Canaanite language. Canaanite religious motifs are found all through Jewish monotheism, e.g. the design for Solomon's Temple is a direct copy of pagan Canaanite temples, the messiah concept was first seen in the Canaanite religion where the earthly king to be righteous, modeled his rulership on that of EL Elyon, God Most high, who, unlike Yahweh, was loved by the Canaanites as their "Compassionate One", their "Kindly One", their "Friendly One", because these ancient Canaanites were not taught to fear EL. EL ruled the Canaanite pantheon of gods and goddesses with wisdom and compassion while the lower war gods, ruled through force and fear. A general's commands must always be obeyed and the penalty for disobedience is swift and harsh. So too the war gods commandments of Yahweh.

Jesus found EL which is why Jesus' teachings do not reflect the god of the Old Testament, Yahweh. There is much more to learn about the incredible mixing of pagan religious concepts with the stripped down pagan gods of the Abrahamic religionists.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, paganprophet!

Thank you for your response.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

The baby, baby Jesus, will be ok, but the bathwater goes down the drain along with other religious mythologies where gods and goddesses descend to mate with humans to produce the royal lineages.

Other religious mythologies where gods and goddesses descend to mate with humans to produce royal lineages? Perhaps in quite a number of pagan pantheons this is so, the Greco-Roman pantheon comes to mind, as do the Oriental pantheons. But not the Jews. It is even further back in mythological time in Genesis where it is mentioned the Nephilim descending and mating with humans, and the purpose of Noah's flood was specifically to do away with that polluted race. A second influx is mentioned, dealing with a race of giants who incidentally lived in Canaan, of whom Og and Goliath are specific examples, against whom the Jews deliberately warred. In layman's terms, the children of G-d were set to battle with the children of the fallen angels, terms for the most part kept to. When those terms were not met, Israel including Judah suffered the consequences.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

There is so much knowledge God is resurrecting in our times that overturns all the Abrahamic myths it's hard to know where to begin to unravel the twisted threads of history and mythology.

Perhaps, yet there is also knowledge resurrected by men in an effort to overturn the Abrahamic myths. Genesis isn't meant to be entirely factually historical. The earth wasn't created in 6 revolutions of the earth. The flood of Noah likely did not cover the entire globe. The epic period between Ha-Adam and Noah records something like 1800 years, but that figure may well be philosophical, and in the end pertaining to the lessons taught it is irrelevant. After the flood, when the land masses split and human lifetimes grow appreciably shorter, the single tongue is confused and people scatter. We know from linguistic studies that the vast majority of the languages still in use among various tribes of peoples stem back to a proto-semitic language called Sanskrit. Writing, we know from cuneiform tablets found in Mesopotamia, represent the earliest documentation available to us, and it is here we find such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, as well as records that correspond quite closely with the story of the Flood of Noah, in addition to our earliest examples of mathematics and astrology / astronomy.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

For example, Yahweh, tribal god of the Israelites, started off life as Yamm, Canaanite god of the sea and rivers and judgment. And arch-enemy of Baal, a war that Yahweh continues all through the Jewish epic.

This may be one interpretation of such findings, but it is an interpretation I hold suspect. I do not agree. Not for stubbornness but for credibility. It seems to me a very far stretch in light of the lack of supporting corroboration.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

Originally God Most High was the Canaanite highest god, EL Elyon. Israelites were one of the tribes in the greater Canaan confederacy of tribal kingdoms. Hebrew is a dialect of the Canaanite language.

That's just it though, this is supposition, and not supported. The Israelites did not even go by that name until the time of Jacob and his 12 sons, shortly after which, if one recalls the story, the Israelites went into bondage in Egypt for some 400 years or so. Bondage proved a double-edged sword for Israel, in that while their bondage was often cruel, it also served as an incubator that allowed Israel to grow. By the time of Moses, there was a great multitude, a far greater population than that of the 12 brothers and their families that went in. So, if anything, I fail to see how Israel could be Canaanitish if they were incubated in Egypt. Now, in the sense that after Moses led them through the wilderness and Joshua led them across into Canaan to evict the progeny of the Nephilim and claim the land as their own, then Israel became associated with the land of Canaan. Not before.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

Canaanite religious motifs are found all through Jewish monotheism, e.g. the design for Solomon's Temple is a direct copy of pagan Canaanite temples,

I find this very difficult to accept. I have seen probably a dozen or so artist's renditions of the Temple of Solomon, no two of which agreed. So, which one of these is a direct copy of a pagan Canaanite temple? The simple historical fact is that the Temple has been raised twice and razed twice, there is nothing there to *factually* assess other than what historic corroboration there is from other sources, none of which provide sufficient detail to make any more than an educated guess. We can know, historically, that the Temple of Solomon existed, but we don't have a clue exactly what it looked like. Well, that's not entirely true, we have clues, but little more.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

the messiah concept was first seen in the Canaanite religion where the earthly king to be righteous, modeled his rulership on that of EL Elyon, God Most high, who, unlike Yahweh, was loved by the Canaanites as their "Compassionate One", their "Kindly One", their "Friendly One",

Ah, because pagans had a messiah, then Jews and by extension Christians must be pagan? Pretty slim pickins...

Originally Posted by paganprophet

because these ancient Canaanites were not taught to fear EL.

This highlights translational error. "Fear" is the English word, Olde English at that. I am being lazy not going to the Strong's, but the word used means "reverently trust, respect." As in; "Fear G-d, and keep His Commandments." Kinda sheds a little different light in the subject, no? At the very least it shows how subtleties and nuances in Hebrew are lost in translation to English.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

EL ruled the Canaanite pantheon of gods and goddesses with wisdom and compassion while the lower war gods, ruled through force and fear. A general's commands must always be obeyed and the penalty for disobedience is swift and harsh. So too the war gods commandments of Yahweh.

Sounding more to me like Gilgamesh, et al.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

Jesus found EL which is why Jesus' teachings do not reflect the god of the Old Testament, Yahweh. There is much more to learn about the incredible mixing of pagan religious concepts with the stripped down pagan gods of the Abrahamic religionists.

See, this interpretation is problematic in that if the Jews are pagan by your assessment, then so are Christians by default. I have already showed extensively where your interpretation is faulty, so I am gonna have to say I disagree. Not that there's anything wrong with being pagan (well, depending what kind of pagan), provided one still ends up with something like the Golden Rule for a foundation, and doesn't roast their babies and eat them (like the priests of Baal did).

Are you aware of the word transliterated into English for priest of Baal? It is Kahna-Baal, from which we get the word cannibal.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Well, at least the Mayan calendar is a bit more specific. The beginning of the end comes on 21 December 2012...

Wait a minute...Babylon the great has fallen? Somebody better tell the Roman Catholic church, the Pope and the city of Rome of that little bit of trivia...

The only "city" that fell in 1919 was Berlin, and the country of Germany at large.

The "spirit" can't say anything, it isn't a person Mee, just a manifestaion of force; you said so yourself, many times.

I honestly try to follow your logic and reasoning...but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.

I'm certain that God is coming back...I just don't know when, and He specfically states we aren't to worry about it, just be ready and aware when the time comes...

Like my dad once

Moral of that story is, every breath you take, give thanks to God, and help your neighbor, if and when you can...

v/r

advised me...Living for tomorrow, means we miss what is going on today. And twenty four hours is about all we really get (sometimes not even that).
Q

bible prophecy and chronology is very specific, 1914 was the beginning of the end, and Babylon the great did fall in 1919 and it is being made known , so someone has told about it , let him who has ears listen . remember babylon the great is not a litral city, it symbolizes ( the world wide empire of false religion) and this symbolic city no longer has any power over Gods people. and as you mentioned , give thanks to Jehovah God the only true God psalm 83;18 its all happening in the time of the end . and the understanding is there for the taking, but do we want it?

[mee]

Revelation 17:1-5 says: "‘Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters [peoples], with whom the kings [political rulers] of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.’ . . . And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: ‘Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.’" Revelation 18:7 adds that "she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury."

Is it not true that the dominant religious organizations have made it a practice to consort with political rulers for power and material gain, though this has resulted in suffering for the common people? Is it not also true that their higher clergy live in luxury, even though many of the people to whom they should minister may be impoverished?