identifying...Babylon the great

[mee]

Originally Posted by kenod

Which suggests it may be a title of a role rather than a particular man's name. Anyway, we are told to count, or calculate, the number ... sounds like a maths calculation ... adding the number value of the letters, maybe? Any ideas?

The Bible answers, saying: "All [humans] have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) The beast’s having "a human number," therefore, indicates that governments reflect the fallen human condition, the mark of sin and imperfection.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

yes, 666 misses the mark of perfection in a big way, 3 for making a pointA clue to the meaning of 666 lies in its being "a man’s number," or as The Amplified Bible puts it, "a human number."
the beast’s having "a human number," or mark, suggests that it is a human entity

Oops, Mee, I apologize. You are correct. It is the number of "a man". So there is only one with that number.

v/r

Q

[mee]

i found this interesting about the number 666 666—The Mark of the Beast—What Does It Mean?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

I am wondering how you understand the reference to 666:

Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:
for it is the number of a man;
and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.(Rev 13:18)

Here you go. It is a formula and an explanation of how it can work, and examples of how others force it to work.

v/r

Q

http://religion-cults.com/antichrist/666.htm

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

Do you know if the RC church has formally renounced the use of force to get heretics to recant? I'm not suggesting it still happens, but I'm wondering if the belief that we should "compel" them to come in is still official doctrine.

Excommunicee, or "shunning" is a powerful psychological tool to use against a human being (which is a socially dependent creature). To say, "you are excluded, or banned", or are "persona non grata", is in a way a mini hell. To be isolated from a group is emotionally and psychologically damaging, especially if there are long ties to that group...

The church simply learned to use man's own fear of isolation, to their advantage. However, excommunication is rarely used today, mostly for grevious harm brought to the church by a person, or group.

v/r

Q

[mee]

when ancient Babylon fell she continued to function, but with one big difference—God’s people, Israel, were no longer held captive. They returned to Jerusalem to restore true worship there. its the same today ,Babylon the great has already fallen , but she nolonger has any power over true christians, they are restoring true worship. interesting stuff i would say.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

when ancient Babylon fell she continued to function, but with one big difference—God’s people, Israel, were no longer held captive. They returned to Jerusalem to restore true worship there. its the same today ,Babylon the great has already fallen , but she nolonger has any power over true christians, they are restoring true worship. interesting stuff i would say.

Hmmm, Israel is getting nailed on all sides, and Christians aren't the chosen people, they are the grafted branches to the tree of life. Babylon hasn't fallen yet, since the nation of Israel is still under extreme pressure, and fights daily to be kept from being captive. And "somebody" is making their life miserable...And dare say, who are "true Christians"?

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hmmm, Israel is getting nailed on all sides, and Christians aren't the chosen people, they are the grafted branches to the tree of life. Babylon hasn't fallen yet, since the nation of Israel is still under extreme pressure, and fights daily to be kept from being captive. And "somebody" is making their life miserable...And dare say, who are "true Christians"?

the book of revelation is well and truly for our day, and babylon the great has well and truly fallen , Jesus said at the beginning of the book of revelation ,
A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, revelation 1;1 the book of revelation was to show HIS SLAVES the things that must shortly take place, .........yes Jesus slaves are being shown many things concerning the book of revelation, and true christians are Jesus slaves and he is using those slaves to reveal many things , and those slaves have a great responsibility to make it known. matthew 24;45-47 yes the slaves of God are SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES,not fleshly . the fleshly nation of Israelites, did not want to be slaves of Jesus , individuals from that nation did , but the nation as a whole did not listen to the voice of God , they rejected Jesus as Gods representative, and as Exodus says
"And now ...IF.... you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all other peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."—Ex. 19:5, they had the first choice to become kings and priests in the heavenly kingdom goverment ,that was eventually set up in 1914 in the heavens , but they did not want to accept Jesus ,who would be the future king of this kingdom.
God has placed his favor upon a new nation consisting, not of fleshly Israelites, but of spiritual Israelites. Jehovah works through a new nation. yes the spiritual israelites know that Babylon the great has fallen, she no longer has any power over Gods people , the spiritual israelites are nolonger under her control, they are restoring pure worship. yes the book of revelation is for our day, and since the last days , which started in 1914 , many things in the book of revelation are happening to Gods people , thrilling times indeed

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

the book of revelation is well and truly for our day, and babylon the great has well and truly fallen , Jesus said at the beginning of the book of revelation ,
A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, revelation 1;1 the book of revelation was to show HIS SLAVES the things that must shortly take place, .........yes Jesus slaves are being shown many things concerning the book of revelation, and true christians are Jesus slaves and he is using those slaves to reveal many things , and those slaves have a great responsibility to make it known. matthew 24;45-47 yes the slaves of God are SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES,not fleshly . the fleshly nation of Israelites, did not want to be slaves of Jesus , individuals from that nation did , but the nation as a whole did not listen to the voice of God , they rejected Jesus as Gods representative, and as Exodus says
"And now ...IF.... you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all other peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."—Ex. 19:5, they had the first choice to become kings and priests in the heavenly kingdom goverment ,that was eventually set up in 1914 in the heavens , but they did not want to accept Jesus ,who would be the future king of this kingdom.
God has placed his favor upon a new nation consisting, not of fleshly Israelites, but of spiritual Israelites. Jehovah works through a new nation. yes the spiritual israelites know that Babylon the great has fallen, she no longer has any power over Gods people , the spiritual israelites are nolonger under her control, they are restoring pure worship. yes the book of revelation is for our day, and since the last days , which started in 1914 , many things in the book of revelation are happening to Gods people , thrilling times indeed

Yep, in our day...it was written 2000 years ago.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Yep, in our day...it was written 2000 years ago.

Daniel 12;4
And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant............"As most bible students realize many of the prophecies in the book of revelation are tied up with the prophecies in Daniel . yes make no mistake about it , the book of revelation most certainly is for our day ,it is being revealed and uncovered and we are now in the Lords day, and have been since 1914 when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment, thrilling times indeed

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

Daniel 12;4
And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant............"As most bible students realize many of the prophecies in the book of revelation are tied up with the prophecies in Daniel . yes make no mistake about it , the book of revelation most certainly is for our day ,it is being revealed and uncovered and we are now in the Lords day, and have been since 1914 when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment, thrilling times indeed

Yep, and the original "Babylon" has been sacked again. Right in our times, as we live and breathe. So, which is it? The original "Babylon"? or some new "Babylon"? Can't have two Babylons...and you still haven't shown 1914 in Daniel, or any other part of the Bible...

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Yep, and the original "Babylon" has been sacked again. Right in our times, as we live and breathe. So, which is it? The original "Babylon"? or some new "Babylon"? Can't have two Babylons...and you still haven't shown 1914 in Daniel, or any other part of the Bible...

the Babylon in the book of revelation is Babylon the GREAT and the reason she is having that name is because she has many similar things in her that the ancient Babylon had. the significant date 1914 is very clear indeed to those who are willing to see. for me, i see it very clear indeed . yes the signs are all happening . thrilling times indeed.

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Yep, and the original "Babylon" has been sacked again. Right in our times, as we live and breathe. So, which is it? The original "Babylon"? or some new "Babylon"? Can't have two Babylons...and you still haven't shown 1914 in Daniel, or any other part of the Bible...

King Nebuchadnezzer stands at his window, gazes out at the city of which he is king, and says, "Is this not Babylon the great?" Then God makes him go insane and eat grass. With all the references to Daniel that have come up in this thread, I'm surprised that this particular reference has not, considering that the exact phrase "Babylon the great" is used.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Marsh

King Nebuchadnezzer stands at his window, gazes out at the city of which he is king, and says, "Is this not Babylon the great?" Then God makes him go insane and eat grass. With all the references to Daniel that have come up in this thread, I'm surprised that this particular reference has not, considering that the exact phrase "Babylon the great" is used.

The Babylon the great in the book of revelation, is the world empire of false religion , and she has a worldwide influence.
Babylon the Great has been judged worthy of destruction by reason of her historical record of spiritual fornication with world rulers, her bloodguilt in wars, and her spiritistic practices. Therefore, Jehovah God has judicially determined that Satan’s world empire of false religion must be terminated.—Revelation 18:3, 23, 24. and it will happen because the bible always comes true.
In highly symbolic language, the book of Revelation describes the destruction of Babylon the Great. At Revelation 17:16 we read: "The ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.
According to Bible prophecy, the political powers associated with the United Nations will turn against the world empire of false religion and devastate her. All false religions will be affected.
It remains to be seen just what further issues will provoke the political elements worldwide to act against false religion. But one thing is certain—the execution of Babylon the Great by these elements will be not only their will but also the will of God. Revelation 17:17 states: "God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished."—Compare Jeremiah 51:12, 13.
Make no mistake. The execution of Babylon the Great will not simply be the expression of political enmity toward religious arrogance and interference. The political rulers will be God’s involuntary tools for the destruction of false worship worldwide. Yes, "her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind."—Revelation 18:5. yes God uses whom ever he wants to accomplish his purpose . even though they think they are doing what they want, Jehovah God can use whomever he wants.

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by mee

The Babylon the great in the book of revelation, is the world empire of false religion , and she has a worldwide influence.

It certainly could be. But this explanation seems a little troublesome for me (and yet at the same time it makes perfect sense to Mee-- pun definitely intended. Why? Well, the imagery in the book of Daniel is very consistent with that of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, so I can't help but think that "Babylon the Great" and Nebuchadnezzer's Babylonian empire are related. The Babylonian empire seems to have been political in its nature, rather than religious; an actual physical empire, or country, rather than an ideological one. It's only after Nebuchadnezzer has begun to rule that he attempts to establish a false religion over his subjects-- specifically, the worship of the golden image. And actually, I believe that the Revelation refers to Babylon the Great as a city-- perhaps the capital city of a country or empire. And really, when you stop and think about it, our modern system of dividing the world into countries is kind of like having a collection of empires, with every country being an empire.

When John is shown the vision of the harlot (which is Babylon the Great), he is "amazed" at what he sees. Maybe it's just me but I can't help but think that he saw something that he knew, or that already existed at his time. Otherwise, he would have been more confused than amazed at what he saw, or maybe he wouldn't have understood the significance of what he saw. So if John saw a city that already existed at his time, and that he knew, then why couldn't that city be Jerusalem? I mean, it would be pretty amazing to see that it's your very own spiritual capital city that becomes the great harlot. I mean, Rome seems to be a pretty obvious choice, but it seems to me that prophecy is more mysterious than obvious. And really, can you think of a more significant city in the world than Jerusalem? Also, why would there be any need for a New Jerusalem if the old one could be rennovated? (I'm only half kidding here).

If I may also point something else out with regards to the issue of the beast that was, then was not, but will come up out of the abyss to its destruction: At the time that John received his vision, Israel as a sovereign state was not. In the days of David Israel was a sovereign state. Today, Israel is a sovereign state. Therefore, Israel was, then was not, and has come again; perhaps the beast is Israel itself-- political Israel, I mean; the government, not the people. This would also explain God's warning, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her punishment (paraphrased)."

Also, referring to the imagery of Daniel again, Israel as a decendant of Babylon makes sense to some degree. If you look at the empires that are referred to in the imagery of the statue, the common theme that all of them have is that they rule over Jerusalem: first Babylon, then Persia, then Greece, and finally Rome. Since then who has taken rule over Jerusalem? The Ottomans took it from Rome, the British took it from the Ottomans, and the Israelis have taken it from the British-- at least partially. Some of it still belongs to Jordan, no? Seven heads: Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Brits, and Israelis? Take it back one step further and you get Israelis at the beginning and the end of the list. According to the Revelation there is an eighth king that is one of the seven; Israel fits this description, kind of like in the same way that a political leader can fall from power and then return to power after a term.

Of course, these are just thoughts that I've had. I've done a great deal of struggling with these two books, but still am not confident in the conclusions I've drawn.

Also, I'd like to ask for forgiveness in advance for suggesting that Jerusalem could be portrayed as a harlot, and that Israel could be symbolized as a beast; nobody wants their city or country to be described in negative terms, I'm sure, so if anyone on this forum is from Jerusalem, or attaches particular importance to Jerusalem, or if there are any Israelis reading this, please accept my apologies and know that I'm only making this suggestion in the interest of scholarly discussion.