identifying...Babylon the great

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hmmm, Mee's main reference isn't the bible...It is the Watch Tower tracts and doctrine. So even he doesn't follow what he "wishes" for...

v/r

Joshua

Simply stating Joshua that there are people on both sides of the fence who sincerely believe that they are quoting in context.

To say that Mee's main reference is the Watch Tower is a tad bit unfair seeing as his posts are littered with Bible quotes...

There's not a single JW who doesn't believe that their tracts and doctrines are derived from the Bible. I'm sure you've read a WatchTower magazine yourself Joshua, wouldn't you agree that there are Bible verses quoted in every single paragraph?

Saying that, I'm sure you and Faithful Servant (amongst others) also believe that your beliefs are derived from the Bible.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by aburaees

Simply stating Joshua that there are people on both sides of the fence who sincerely believe that they are quoting in context.

To say that Mee's main reference is the Watch Tower is a tad bit unfair seeing as his posts are littered with Bible quotes...

There's not a single JW who doesn't believe that their tracts and doctrines are derived from the Bible. I'm sure you've read a WatchTower magazine yourself Joshua, wouldn't you agree that there are Bible verses quoted in every single paragraph?

Saying that, I'm sure you and Faithful Servant (amongst others) also believe that your beliefs are derived from the Bible.

Quite the contrary. The primary reference for Jehovah's witnesses comes from the doctrine as decided by the twleve elders that lead the faith. the bible is used to back up the official doctrine, not the other way around. The bible Mee uses is an interesting interpretation of the Greek and Hebrew texts. One of the primary differences between the NWT and most other standard bibles is the NWT does not allow for Jesus to be God Almighty, just merely a mighty god. Also JWs do not adhere to the Trinitarian concept of the Godhead (one God, three personages). The JWs opine there is One God "Jehovah" and another, limited god "Jesus". They also adhere to a multi-level of Heaven/paradise, of which only 144,000 of the faithful of Jehovah's Witnesses get to go to Heaven, while everyone else stays on earth.

Finally, JWs do ot use faith as their underlying strength in the concept of God but rather, human reason.

Not being unfair to Mee at all. I simply state what his faith decrees, and where his references come from.

v/r

Joshua

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Quite the contrary. The primary reference for Jehovah's witnesses comes from the doctrine as decided by the twleve elders that lead the faith. the bible is used to back up the official doctrine, not the other way around. The bible Mee uses is an interesting interpretation of the Greek and Hebrew texts. One of the primary differences between the NWT and most other standard bibles is the NWT does not allow for Jesus to be God Almighty, just merely a mighty god. Also JWs do not adhere to the Trinitarian concept of the Godhead (one God, three personages). The JWs opine there is One God "Jehovah" and another, limited god "Jesus". They also adhere to a multi-level of Heaven/paradise, of which only 144,000 of the faithful of Jehovah's Witnesses get to go to Heaven, while everyone else stays on earth.

Finally, JWs do ot use faith as their underlying strength in the concept of God but rather, human reason.

Not being unfair to Mee at all. I simply state what his faith decrees, and where his references come from.

v/r

Joshua

Never heard of the twelve elders myself, but do you think they conjured up their doctrines from thin air, or did they derive them from the Bible?

To be completely honest I can see, even in the King James Version, where JWs find Biblical support for ALL of their beliefs. On the flipside, I can also see the counter-position.

Not saying that there's a contradiction, but one person's context is another person's out-of-context in my opinion.

I think it's not just JWs who try to use reason to build up faith, inteligent design theories are a means of using reason to build up faith, and these theories are used by many a Christian in modern America and in Europe.

Are you familiar with Joh17:3? The way to everlasting life is taking in Knowledge of the only true God, and Christ whom he sent. This, it seems would preclude faith.

Babylon the Great is an interesting topic, I wonder if learning about ancient Babylon would help someone understand what Babylon the Great is supposeed to represent?

Mee, have you read any of the Mesopotamian myths?

[Dor]

Originally Posted by aburaees

I might be Muslim but that doesn't mean that I'm out to prove a contradiction. Relax brother.

And what you said about 'context', I hear Mee wishing for the same thing...

Well actions speak louder than words.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by aburaees

Simply stating Joshua that there are people on both sides of the fence who sincerely believe that they are quoting in context.

Well 6 words out of a 37 word verse can hardly be thought of as in context quit bsing us.

Saying that, I'm sure you and Faithful Servant (amongst others) also believe that your beliefs are derived from the Bible.

Sure of course cause it comes straight from the Bible. I do not put some guys magazine, some preacher, church leader, rabbi, or whoever you want to list above that book. If it is not in there it does not mean much.

There's not a single JW who doesn't believe that their tracts and doctrines are derived from the Bible. I'm sure you've read a WatchTower magazine yourself Joshua, wouldn't you agree that there are Bible verses quoted in every single paragraph?

Sure you realize Hitler quoted the Bible. And Osama and that arse in Iran quote the Koran. Point is just cause some one pulls one verse out of context does not mean the crap they pass off is Biblical or supported by the Koran.

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Dor

Well 6 words out of a 37 word verse can hardly be thought of as in context quit bsing us.

Sure Dor, I'll have to quit bsing you because you're the alpha male. Right?

Originally Posted by Dor

Sure of course cause it comes straight from the Bible. I do not put some guys magazine, some preacher, church leader, rabbi, or whoever you want to list above that book. If it is not in there it does not mean much.


Sure you realize Hitler quoted the Bible. And Osama and that arse in Iran quote the Koran. Point is just cause some one pulls one verse out of context does not mean the crap they pass off is Biblical or supported by the Koran.

I love you too.

.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.


I wish people would take the bible as a whole rather than bits and pieces of verses out of context trying to prove a contradiction

What did Jesus mean when He said, "I and my Father are one."? The questioner has read into the Scripture that Jesus said He was equal to the Father in regards to their authority. Such is not the case. In the very text, Jesus declares that the Father "...is greater than all..." (10:29) Throughout His ministry, Jesus affirmed that the Father was greater than He. In John 5:19, Jesus states, "...I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." Later in the same text, He says, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just: because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30).

How then are the Christ and the Father "one"? In John 17:11, Jesus prays for His disciples with these words, "...that they may be one, as we are one." Again, in the same chapter at verses 22-23, Jesus says, "...that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one..." This same word, "one" is used in Galatians 2:28, where the apostle Paul says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." How are they one? In nature. Just as Jews, Greeks, slaves, free, men and women are all one in nature --- Christian --- so the Father and Son are one in nature --- God. That does not mean they are equal in their exercise of authority. Some in the church were placed in positions of greater responsibility and authority (ie. apostles, prophets, elders, teachers), however, they are still "...one in Christ Jesus" with the rest. The Father is greater than the Son in authority, but they are equal in nature -- both are deity.

There is no contradiction.

unity of purpose works wonders ,Jesus was and is in unity of purpose with his father Jehovah ,and his followers were in unity of purpose also. Yes the father Jehovah is greater than the son , but Jesus is in unity of purpose.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by aburaees

Never heard of the twelve elders myself, but do you think they conjured up their doctrines from thin air, or did they derive them from the Bible?

They came from Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916). They are called the "Studies in the Scriptures" (six volumes). The followers of Russell were told by Russell that if they read these books alone, without even reading the Bible, they would have the light of the Scriptures. If, however, they read the Bible alone without reading his books, they would be in darkness within two years.

After Russell died, Judge Rutherford took over the presidency of the Watchtower Society, during which time they became known as Jehovah's Witnesses. Rutherford had JWs go door to door to sell the Watchtower book.

After Rutherford, Nathan Knorr (1905-1977) became president. He developed the NWT (New World Translation) Bible for use by Jehovah's Witnesses.

v/r

Joshua

[Dor]

Originally Posted by aburaees

Sure Dor, I'll have to quit bsing you because you're the alpha male. Right?

Nope not the alpha male just know that saying 6 words out of 37 is not in context.

I love you too.

Yep I love you too. Jesus loves you too. Just cause I say something you disagree with does not mean I do not love you.

[mee]

the inhabitants of Mesopotamia were very religious after that original rebellion. (tower of babel)They believed that there was a spirit part of man that survived death. They had a strong belief in demons. They used images. They practiced divination and astrology, and they even had triads of gods. These are some of the same beliefs that are held in common by so many today
the religion of ancient Mesopotamia spread and influenced religions around the world? Many scholars have come to that conclusion. In Handbooks of the History of Religions, Prof. Morris Jastrow spoke of "the profound impression made upon the ancient world by the remarkable manifestations of religious thought in Babylonia.
In the book The Worship of the Dead, Col. J. Garnier wrote: "Not merely Egyptians, Chaldeans, Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans, but also the Hindus, the Buddhists, . . . the Goths, Anglo-Saxons, Druids, Mexicans and Peruvians . . . must have all derived their religious ideas from a common source and a common centre. Everywhere we find the most startling coincidences in rites, ceremonies, customs, traditions, and in the names and relations of their respective gods and goddesses." Evidently, when those early Babylonians were forced to migrate around the earth, they carried their religious ideas with them to their new homes. yes false religion is alive and active even today , it is just as revelation tells us , BABYLON THE GREAT (the world empire of false religion) and Gods people have to GET OUT OF HER

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by mee

She is Satan’s chief instrument for blinding the people to Jehovah’s Kingdom purposes.—2 Corinthians 4:3, 4.

No you were correct the first time Revelation is describing the whore of babylon as false religion... she gets drunk and gains power from the however many headed beast which is world powers and nations in a political view.... *shrugs*

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

No you were correct the first time Revelation is describing the whore of babylon as false religion... she gets drunk and gains power from the however many headed beast which is world powers and nations in a political view.... *shrugs*

And the false "religion" is led by a leader who has control over every nation on earth (which has not happened yet). And I strongly suspect, it won't be the Roman Catholic church...nor the Pope.

[mee]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

No you were correct the first time Revelation is describing the whore of babylon as false religion... she gets drunk and gains power from the however many headed beast which is world powers and nations in a political view.... *shrugs*

yes ,she is false religion

[mee]

Jehovah’s judgment of Babylon the Great is final: "And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: ‘Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.’" (Revelation 18:21) of course babylon the great is not a litral city like in JEREMIAHS DAY but she is a worldwide empire of false religion.
The completely ruined condition of ancient Babylon today testifies powerfully to what will befall false religion in the near future.
In Jeremiah’s time, a similar act with powerful prophetic meaning was performed. Jeremiah was inspired to write in a book "all the calamity that would come upon Babylon." He gave the book to Seraiah and told him to travel to Babylon. There, following Jeremiah’s instructions, Seraiah read a declaration against the city: "O Jehovah, you yourself have spoken against this place, in order to cut it off so that there may come to be in it no inhabitant, either man or even domestic animal, but that she may become mere desolate wastes to time indefinite." Seraiah then tied a stone to the book and threw it into the river Euphrates, saying: "This is how Babylon will sink down and never rise up because of the calamity that I am bringing in upon her."—Jeremiah 51:59-64. yes ,false religion is near its end, bible prophecy always comes true .

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

And the false "religion" is led by a leader who has control over every nation on earth (which has not happened yet). And I strongly suspect, it won't be the Roman Catholic church...nor the Pope.

Nah I agree with that besides, isn't one of the beast's heads the roman empire? And roman catholic is a religion so if it was false it would be apart of the whore of babylon..... Regarding a previous thread of mine didn't Nostradamus say that when a black pope was elected that was the start of it all?