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Old 09-10-2006, 08:25 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: If God was to send us a message.

Hi again Art,

I was writing the last part of the above rather quickly and it was not my intention to be challenging. But, I am under the impression that interpretations such as the essay you linked to are not considered authoritative by the UHJ, i.e., they are not the only possible interpretations of Abdu'l Baha's words that a Baha'i can have on the subject.

Laurie
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Old 09-10-2006, 08:38 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: If God was to send us a message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postmaster
Hello fellow monotheists!

If God was to send us a message by say a prophet! What would you like to hear? Or what do you think he will have to say? Feel free to express your views, I'm curious!
The prime message is the same always; believe in ONENESS of God and to follow the prophet to reach to God and to uproot the evil on earth. This is outlined in Quran in many a places, I quote here a few verses from Chapter 11 Hud.
[11:26] And We sent Noah to his people, and he said, 'Truly, I am a plain Warner to you,
[11:27] That you worship none but Allah. Indeed, I fear for you the punishment of a grievous day.'
[11:28] The chiefs of his people, who disbelieved, replied, 'We see thee nothing but a mortal like ourselves, and we see that none have followed thee but those who, to all outward appearance, are the meanest of us. And we do not see in you any superiority over us; nay, we believe you to be liars.'
[11:29] He said, 'O my people, tell me if I stand on a clear proof from my Lord and He has bestowed upon me from Himself a great mercy which has remained obscure to you, how will it fare with you? Shall we force it upon you, while you are averse thereto?
[11:30] 'And O my people, I do not ask of you any wealth in return for it. My reward is only with Allah. And I am not going to drive away those who believe. They shall certainly meet their Lord. But I see that you are an ignorant people; unquote
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Old 09-10-2006, 10:40 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: If God was to send us a message.

So what youíre trying to say is, even when we were fish we had a spiritual intent to progress towards being a human? So those who constantly follow God have some kind of X factor which always made us human (at least in spirit)? We had mating ethics which had some virtue in choice then?
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Old 09-10-2006, 04:13 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Wink Note of evolution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postmaster
So what youíre trying to say is, even when we were fish we had a spiritual intent to progress towards being a human? So those who constantly follow God have some kind of X factor which always made us human (at least in spirit)? We had mating ethics which had some virtue in choice then?
Well it's an interesting concept to contemplate. Man is always potentially man even tyhough he has appeared in different forms:

"The forms assumed by the human embryo in its successive changes do not prove that it is animal in its essential character... Realizing this we may acknowledge the fact that at one time man was an inmate of the sea, at another period an invertebrate, then a vertebrate and finally a human being standing erect. Though we admit these changes, we cannot say man is an animal... Proof of this lies in the fact that in the embryo man still resembles a worm. This embryo still progresses from one state to another, assuming different forms until that which was potential in it - namely, the human image - appears."

'Abdu'l-BahŠ, The Promulgation of Universal Peace (Wilmette: BahŠ'Ū Publishing Trust, 1982) 358-9.

I don't want to detract the purpose of your thread here...

- Art
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Old 09-10-2006, 04:54 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: If God was to send us a message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunamoth
Hi again Art,

I was writing the last part of the above rather quickly and it was not my intention to be challenging. But, I am under the impression that interpretations such as the essay you linked to are not considered authoritative by the UHJ, i.e., they are not the only possible interpretations of Abdu'l Baha's words that a Baha'i can have on the subject.

Laurie
What follows is the closest thinng I could find off hand to our position regarding "authoritative interpretations and science. I think it is the closest we can get to the issue:

With regard to the harmony of science and religion, the Writings of the Central Figures and the commentaries of the Guardian make abundantly clear that the task of humanity, including the Baha'i community that serves as the "leaven" within it, is to create a global civilization which embodies both the spiritual and material dimensions of existence.

The nature and scope of such a civilization are still beyond anything the present generation can conceive. The prosecution of this vast enterprise will depend on a progressive interaction between the truths and principles of religion and the discoveries and insights of scientific inquiry.

This entails living with ambiguities as a natural and inescapable feature of the process of exploring reality.

It also requires us not to limit science to any particular school of thought or methodological approach postulated in the course of its development.

The challenge facing Baha'i thinkers is to provide responsible leadership in this endeavour, since it is they who have both the priceless insights of the Revelation and the advantages conferred by scientific investigation.

(19 May 1995, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer)

So I accept the following:

living with ambiguities as a natural and inescapable feature of the process of exploring reality.

It also requires us not to limit science to any particular school of thought or methodological approach postulated in the course of its development.
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Old 09-10-2006, 05:06 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: If God was to send us a message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra
So I accept the following:

living with ambiguities as a natural and inescapable feature of the process of exploring reality.

It also requires us not to limit science to any particular school of thought or methodological approach postulated in the course of its development.
Hi Art, Thank you. This is an excellent quote and one I can wholeheartedly agree with. I think that where we keep miscommunicating is that the way you replied at first, and the essay you linked to, suggest that a Baha'i is constrained in their understanding of evolutionary theory, where this is not the case (as your quote above suggests).

For example, one could think that Abdu'l Baha was alluding to the metaphysical idea that Adam (and all humanity with him) only came into existence at that moment when God was revealed to him. Or, one could think of potential humanity embedded in the first form of life and throughout whatever branch of the evolutionary tree gave rise to man, so that man's image in God was itself revealed through evolution. I think it's a very rich metaphor.

The difference, as I see it, is that the current evolutionary model as a tree, with all species sharing a common trunk, is acceptable as a theory to Baha'is. I'm not saying that this is the end of investigation, and I'm not saying one must reject the idea that each species was created independently and underwent linear evolution (although I do not share that view--seems quite a bit less probable than the tree model).

I felt that the essay you linked to was indeed limiting science to a particular idea.

Thank you,
Laurie
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Old 09-11-2006, 05:34 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: Note of evolution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra
Well it's an interesting concept to contemplate. Man is always potentially man even tyhough he has appeared in different forms:
"The forms assumed by the human embryo in its successive changes do not prove that it is animal in its essential character... Realizing this we may acknowledge the fact that at one time man was an inmate of the sea, at another period an invertebrate, then a vertebrate and finally a human being standing erect. Though we admit these changes, we cannot say man is an animal... Proof of this lies in the fact that in the embryo man still resembles a worm. This embryo still progresses from one state to another, assuming different forms until that which was potential in it - namely, the human image - appears."
This is exactly the Ahmadi view a faith in Islam, and conforms to the Holy Quran. The Bible (OT) has stated it differently because those who translated Bible, of course they were human beings and had their limitations,they held the primitive view, otherwise that could also be genuinely and truthfully interpreted accordingly if we leave the errors, contradictions, ambiguities of the translators; of which we are entitled to as Bible is also a common treasure of the human beings and not necessarily of a particular race.
We Ahmadis believe from Quran that Adam was not the first human being rather he was the first of the human sapiens who received
Word of God directly (i.e. Revelation form God) and as such was the first Prophet/Messenger of God sent to his people who already existed like him.
We also do not believe in the blind Watchmaker or the Deaf and Dumb factors of Natural Selection and Survival of the fittest, of course this was not by accident but by the design of the Creator God whose powerful hand was always at work and used these operatives as per the scheme of things of God and shaped or evolved man and other animals as he had planned, and all this happened here on earth not in the heavens as misunderstood by many.
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Old 09-11-2006, 06:52 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: If God was to send us a message.

Very interesting inhumility and thanks for the information!

- Art
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Old 09-11-2006, 05:46 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: Note of evolution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by inhumility
This is exactly the Ahmadi view a faith in Islam, and conforms to the Holy Quran. The Bible (OT) has stated it differently because those who translated Bible, of course they were human beings and had their limitations,they held the primitive view, otherwise that could also be genuinely and truthfully interpreted accordingly if we leave the errors, contradictions, ambiguities of the translators; of which we are entitled to as Bible is also a common treasure of the human beings and not necessarily of a particular race.
We Ahmadis believe from Quran that Adam was not the first human being rather he was the first of the human sapiens who received
Word of God directly (i.e. Revelation form God) and as such was the first Prophet/Messenger of God sent to his people who already existed like him.
We also do not believe in the blind Watchmaker or the Deaf and Dumb factors of Natural Selection and Survival of the fittest, of course this was not by accident but by the design of the Creator God whose powerful hand was always at work and used these operatives as per the scheme of things of God and shaped or evolved man and other animals as he had planned, and all this happened here on earth not in the heavens as misunderstood by many.
Thanks
think I'll stick with my flawed holy book, rather than one which is claimed as superior. Same goes for faith.
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:16 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: Note of evolution...

Did the car evolve from a boat, or a bicycle? Did the aircraft evolve from the car, or a bird? Did the helicopter evolve from an aircraft, or an electric egg beater? How different is a breathing body from a breathing vehicle? I get to drive one until it wears out.

Questions to ask God (swt)? What, did you want a full list of my prayers?
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:32 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: Note of evolution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberpi
Did the car evolve from a boat, or a bicycle?
None of the above. From a carriage. NOTE: it's just short for carriage.
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Old 09-11-2006, 08:07 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: If God was to send us a message.

So it evolved from a horse because it drives on horsepower. Now that makes sense, thank you. The Flinstones steered me in the wrong direction.

I remember the first time at a very young age when I wrecked my car and it bled a couple of fluids. I remember vividly that I did not cry because it hurt... but I did cry because I thought I permanently wrecked the car. Then I was told that it is designed to be healed, and boy was I relieved. But when I was a little older, I learned that there were limits to that and that it could in fact be destroyed or altered permanently. That was a real drag. When I was a little older though, I was relieved to learn that it was not actually permanently destroyed... for the one (or ones) who has the right keys the car can be reproduced at any stage of the car's life. Whew, what a relief. But my driving priveleges have been revoked a little for a time.

So at this point in the evolution of my understanding... the evolutionist that thinks the body was naturally created by the smile in their parent's eyes are right, because the intelligence of my car evolves just like the world. BUT the intelligent designer that thinks the body was created by an intelligent creator are also right, because I know I have a key and I care far more for the driver than the car. BUT the creationist that thinks God created man is also right... because I know I don't have all the keys and neither do any of you.
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Old 09-12-2006, 02:45 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: Note of evolution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberpi
Did the car evolve from a boat, or a bicycle? Did the aircraft evolve from the car, or a bird? Did the helicopter evolve from an aircraft, or an electric egg beater? How different is a breathing body from a breathing vehicle? I get to drive one until it wears out.

Questions to ask God (swt)? What, did you want a full list of my prayers?
Car came from chariot, which came from carts, which came from sledges circa 3500 BCE. Boats came from floating logs cira 6000 BCE (Egypt). Bicyle from broken chariot and "hobby horse" to "velocipede", to modern bicyle. Aircraft from Leonardo da Vinci's observations of birds. Helicopter Sikorsky (first successful design VS-300), which came from Paul Cornu (1907), which came from Leonardo da Vinci (1523), which came from observing locusts and maple leaf seeds.

As far as asking God, or anything else...why would I want a full list of your prayers?

v/r

Q
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Old 09-12-2006, 05:49 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: If God was to send us a message.

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Originally Posted by james
i dont think there could be another prophet
To send a prophet is Godís prerogative, He knows better whether to send a prophet or not, to revive the message lost. If He decides to send a prophet we have to accept him if we love Him, as we have no choice and if we donít accept we suffer. We cannot afford to be arrogant to God or his Will. He is not bound by the concept of the clergy of the religions; What He could care about them, the dividing and the divided clergy whatever its label or denomination.
As far as I know, Hindus think they are the only sacred Godís people entitled to receive Godís Word, and all others who think they received Revelation from God are just untrue people. On Krishna they end the Word of God. Yet they believe that at the end of the world, when evil would take over the world, Krishna would appear again. So they close the prophet-hood at one hand and open it again in another form, the need of a Guide they cannot deny.
The same is for the Zoroastrians; they also close the prophet-hood on Zoroaster, but they also believe that Zoroaster would come again; in another form they also establish the need of a divine Guide.
The Jews, the chosen people of God cannot deny that they are waiting, rather wailing to God for advent of their Moshiach. The need of divine Guide is felt there also, I think.
The Christians wait for the advent of the Christ Jesus again.
The Muslims also end prophet-hood on Muhammad, yet they wait for the Messiah and Imam Mahdi to come as an ummaty (follower)and Caliph of Muhammad.
In short almost every Revealed Religion of the world has the concept, in one form or the other, of a Divine Personage yet to come at the end of the times or the latter- days. The name could be different naturally; different nations speak different languages, so how come the name would match. It would match in the generic concept or the attributes or deeds of the Godís Appointed Official or different aspects of the duties assigned to him by God.
The world has transformed into a Global Village now, evil has divided the human beings; so wouldnít God want Unity among the nations of the World? Yes He does want ,God is One ,so instead of the advent or re-advent of several warring Guides from God for utter confusion of the people on earth, logically the true interpretation would be ,it would be one-Guide to work for peace of the World ,which is the need of the time, and that is understandable.
There cannot come a New Prophet of God, right; with a new message, no prophet could come; for revival of the message which I have told had been or has been the same as explained in my some earlier post, there is no harm .One Man of God was destined to come, nobody can deny, who would promote unity among the religions as also would establish unity of Revealed Books of the world by the true interpretations of the same, not with compulsion, but by convincing everybody by logical and rational argument that would also link the Religion with the realities of Science; end of the strife in all dimension.
This is the Ahmadia view a faith in Islam ,others could stick to their own view,no compulsion.
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Old 09-12-2006, 07:47 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: If God was to send us a message.

i am a muslim...and i believe this
there is no god but god, and Muhammad is His last messenger
also known as the shahada, which all muslims i would think follow, as its the core beleif and principle in islam, sayin there would be another prophet in islam is against islam right?there will be another prophet on earth in the future called jesus, but he is just coming back, not a new prophet
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