Immigrants actually help the job market, at least in California

[wil]

I believe this is why their exists a movement afoot for the 'guest worker' card. And also why there is a movement against it. Tons of lost revenue should it happen. So for the past 30 years that I've been aware of what is going on around me, it has been treated as a necesarry evil by the powers that be.

I've never seen INS come with the busses before harvest was finished. Nor one turned away from work. They show their fake ID, fill out the forms, when they get their check and see they are only taking home 60% they make a decision...is this 60% better than what they can make under the table for someone else? And then either stay at work or go...

Truth is our country is really getting in dire straits when it comes to construction as well, someone willing to do the back breaking work, in the heat, in the cold, in the weather, someone that can read a tape measure, and blueprints, run some men, show up for work everyday...these people are getting more and more rare...hence the illegals moving in and filling the void.

Soon the tide will turn regarding the pay of the handyman, the Doctor, Lawyer, Computer geek will say what?? Your salary is higher than mine...and the plumber will say...I didn't make this much when I was a Doctor either.

You think I'm joking, right now working on construction sites are folks from India, China and Pakistan with engineering degrees and doctorates that labs and offices won't hire because they are over qualified....

[cyberpi]

I too see many polarizations in the world and they are scary in that a person realizes a correction is coming. They are exciting in many ways... well, because a correction is coming.

I tend to look for the cause of the polarizations and oppose it, and yet as a person who judges right from wrong, I am seemingly a person who helps to make them. In that sense, everyone is. But the polarization that interests me is ultimately soul and body, because it is the real one people do not see.

For example though, the US - China relationship. In the USA people live in a capitalist market and dislike communism or socialism, yet they buy goods from China (Walmart) because it is cheaper. In China (many countries) people oppose the rule of America, and yet most slave away in shops to work for them. If brought to mind, the Americans could boycott purchasing from China and the Chinese people could boycott working for whoever. A big, huge correction, and both sides would physically lose. So why not drive the polarization... it produces good things? Or does it. I see that someone somewhere has a vice to overcome to de-polarize.

I feel that the guest worker program helps to drive the polarization for the wrong reasons. Perhaps coming to America is NOT as much an act of Faith, but one today born of greed... thus reversing the situation. Those PhD's and hard workers coming to America are starving their homeland of the brainpower that it desperately needs... which could help to produce jobs there in those countries. At the same time, many who immigrate across borders seemingly help to knit away the polarizations. Exciting, scary times.

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I'm really interested in everyone's input, and glad that everyone is being friendly (after perhaps a little initial testiness) about a subject that generates strong opinions. But that's typical of this site, and why I enjoy it here so much.

I agree that illegal immigration is a big problem, and one that needs to be addressed. But the opinion I see a lot of people having is not so much, "oh, those blasted illegal immigrants" as "oh, those blasted Mexicans and other Hispanics." If there's been talk lately of building a fence on the Canadian border to keep out those dangerous Canucks, or off the West Coast to keep out the Asians, I've missed it.

After all, the Asians work hard, go to college, get good grades. The Mexicans just want to take over our jobs, right?

I've done enough immigrating in my lifetime and lived in enough immigrant communities (both in the US and elsewhere) to know exactly how stressful, scary, exhausting, frightening, and emotionally draining immigration is. I would venture to say that people ALWAYS immigrate to create a better life for themselves. They don't immigrate to take over the country or destroy the natives' way of life. (The people who do that are called colonists, and they come with a military.) After all, immigrants come to a particular country because they appreciate the way of life in that country.

You try leaving everything you've ever known, all your family, all your friends, all your possessions except for what you can easily tote yourself, go to a country where you don't speak the language at all, or just barely. You don't know how the legal system works there, you don't know how the social system works there, if the lights go out in your apartment you don't know who to call about it - for that matter you don't know what the system is for finding an apartment (not every country puts classified ads in the papers, even assuming you could read the papers). You don't even understand people's body language and tone of voice - if someone says something to you, you aren't always sure if they are angry, making a joke, or just stating a fact, and you aren't sure how to respond to make it clear what you mean. You can't get permanent residency until you get a full-time job. You can't get a full-time job until you get health insurance. You can't get health insurance until you get permanent residency. You really want to learn the language, but it takes you a while to learn the system enough to figure out how and where language classes for immigrants are offered. And because you don't have a decent job (not being able to speak the language very well and all), you discover, when you do find a class, that you can't afford it. Once you somehow manage to learn the language a bit, there are plenty of people who won't hire you, because whatever your education back home, it isn't recognized here. Plus you have a funny name. And during all this, you have almost no contact with your family and friends in your native country, because after all, international phone calls are REALLY expensive, and with your earnings, you can't afford to call that often. You can't afford a tv, couldn't understand it if you got it, and books in your native language are really hard to find. It takes a while to crack the social code here, so unless you're lucky enough to move into an enclave of immigrants from your native country, you don't really have many friends to go out with (even assuming you made enough money to go out much anyway). You spend a lot of time alone in your room doing not much.

Sounds like a blast - I can see why so many people want to do it.

What I think is, if conditions in someone's home country are so bad that all of this seems like an improvement, the least we can do is make the process of immigration as easy and humane and sensible as possible. And not waste time and energy asking five-year-olds if they're communists, or berating would-be tourists to the point of tears.

I'm not saying Americans should let down the floodgates completely and holler, "Y'all come!", but I am so sick of the argument that immigrants are going to destroy American life as we know it.

I've seen a political cartoon from roughly the 1850's, when a lot of Irish Catholics were coming to America. People were seriously afraid that this was a Vatican plot to take over the country. In the cartoon, reptilian-looking bishops are swimming up the Mississippi, their mitres equipped with crocodile teeth, to the horror of the citizens trapped on the banks. In the background, the Capitol building is sporting a Vatican flag on one side and an Irish flag on the other, and has been redubbed "United Roman Catholic States" or words to that effect. Off to the side, Lady Liberty is being led to the gallows. We haven't yet started paying taxes to Rome, so I would guess a lot of that worry was unfounded. I see a lot of the same sort of panic these days about Hispanic immigrants.

"At this rate, white people will be in the minority by 2050!" or whatever the date is. So? So what?

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

If there's been talk lately of building a fence on the Canadian border to keep out those dangerous Canucks, or off the West Coast to keep out the Asians, I've missed it.

Unfortunately, I haven't. I actually heard Idaho Governer Butch Otter make a case for a fence along the border with Canada. He pointed to "terrorists" leaking into the US from this country, citing heavily an incident at the border a few years back where a potential "terrorist" leaked through. I don't think that I am mis-remembering him actually advocating for a wall/fence.

Some of the arguments for the wall/fence along the US/Mexico border also incite fear by presenting this argument of preventing "terrorism." This argument, I think, holds little water.


A discussion for another thread perhaps:

Approaches to lessening "terrorism": build walls or examine deeply programmed, widely unexamined foreign policies?

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I stand corrected on that detail. Thanks, Pathless. Despite that, though, I still think my points are valid.
CTV.ca | U.S. politicians favour Canada border fence study

I haven't been able to find anything suggesting Governor Otter had a hand in it, but given this news, I wouldn't be surprised.
Idaho Governor Declares Wolf Public Enemy Number One | New West Network

One wolf opponent in the crowd carried "Wolves are illegal immigrants, too" sign.

[wil]

If any state were to consider a fence it would be Idaho....look at the length of the border...poor Montana...and how about Minnesota the border is dotted with a thousand lakes...

[Pathless]

Scarlet, your points are absolutely valid. I was not at all trying to undermine them.

The wolf thing in Idaho is quite frustrating. I'm not an expert on it, but I know a little bit. After nurturing and nursing the wolf population back from endangered status, there is public pressure from Elk hunters and others to reverse the program. That is, start killing wolves.

You know, because the wolves are barbaric, vicious animals and responsible for thinning the Elk herds.

There is a wolf sanctuary in Idaho (I forget the name of the town where it's located) that is, I believe, suffering from funding difficulties. The wolves in general and in particular the wolves at that sanctuary are very much respected and loved by the Nez Perce Indians.

A topic for another thread, I know. Those interested in the issue can look into the following articles/websites:

Wolf Education Research Center
Nez Perce Oppose Idaho Wolf Killing Plan | Politics | New West Network
Wolf Management

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Scarlet, your points are absolutely valid. I was not at all trying to undermine them.

Thanks. I knew you weren't. Sorry if it sounded like I thought that.

[wil]

Lou Dobbs of CNN would like to put in his two cents....

NEW YORK (CNN) -- This new Congress was supposed to be different. Instead, it is being led by a gaggle of partisan hacks pandering to the same special interests and corporate masters as the previous Republican-led Congress.

more...Dobbs: Democratic hacks embrace lunacy of amnesty

[cyberpi]

Is immigration the free choice of the immigrant, and NOT the American? For the people here convincing others that all immigration is good, both the legal and the illegal, that it is needed and wonderful for the economy and everyone... what is the goal exactly? Lets say that I were to believe that immigration into the USA was somehow restrictive or unfriendly, are we suggesting that immigration law has no place in America? It sounds like some agree that any immigration law is just for a racially or economically biased America to keep the poor out. So should Americans have NO vote then on the laws governing their border to their country? Perhaps I spoke for the law too soon, but I think it is something profound to make immigration solely the choice of the immigrant. Maybe there should be a vote to jettison these immigration laws? I feel strongly that more Americans than the few in DC should have the ratifying vote. Only when rightfully given the responsibility for their border do many Americans truly educate themselves to the problem. Otherwise it will fester.

On a different note, while the Texan / Californian farmers want the cheap workers, foreign countries do not like that the USA subsidizes farming. Something seems wrong there.

[wil]

I have a friend who is now working in Arizona...at the border. She works for a group who goes into Mexico and warns people of the dangers of the desert, and of the coyotes who will take them across. They warn them, but at the same time instructs them, because they know they will cross.

They then patrol the desert on the American side to find those lost, dehydrated and starving, and insure they live. I haven't spoke to her since she left, I've only heard word from her mother. I don't know how they work with authorities or the minutemen, I think theirs is mainly a humanitarian mission. She's young, energetic, passionate, I'm hoping this builds her and doesn't taint her.

[cyberpi]

I am starting to see the American farmer who takes in illegal immigrants as the real criminal. It is him who is spreading the word through the Mexicans to tell them to disobey American law and to come on over. There is disinformation between the US government and the US criminal business. I am sure these farmers don't mind putting a little money towards facilitating their arrival. You know there is a human traffic market going on there. So my vote would be to enforce a $250,000 fine per illegal immigrant found on any premise. Put the criminal farmer out of business if he can't learn to obey the law like his neighbors. Make it a felony and apply small jail sentences. If there are immigrants settled in due to lax standards, then I think the immigration standards need to be lowered temporarily... maybe..., but I suggest they need to go through some sort of process to become citizens like everyone else. I suggest that it is not a solution to make iniquity or lawlessness the standard here, and the only valid law is the one voted on and agreed to by the people. Illegal immigration should be brought to a stop.

Who needs a fence? I think this can be controlled through the criminal businesses who hire the illegal immigrants. They don't get it. How about giant billboards informing illegal immigrants of the penalty, in Spanish? Skip the fence... just inform them of the consequences on the way in and give them contact information to enter legally. I would prefer to pay those who want to immigrate and even help them settle in. Make it easy to become a citizen... all are welcome, but if you don't go through the law then there will be a stiff penalty... most especially for the American farmer or construction business. That is my vote.

[Pathless]

I'd like to zoom out a bit. One approach in thinking about this is as the one issue that it is: that is, one of immigration from south of the border into the United States of America. We can further zoom in on that one issue and split it into the problem of "legal" vs "illegal." And we can simplify the situation by taking the apparently moral and legal high ground:

legal immigration=good
illegal immigration=bad

What is really going on, though? Can we realistically isolate the "immigration issue," or is it simply a symptom of larger societal ills? Global ills, if you will? But wait. We are talking about America, not global ills. Right. And America is the very proud "leader of the free world."

Now I am not trying to distract people with dodgy "debating tactics." Yet I do feel strongly that until we look at this one issue as a symptom of the sickness that has set in on the entire planet, we are just playing another shell-game.

Iniquity, now there's a word. Here's the defintion that I found:

noun

1. gross injustice or wickedness.

2. a violation of right or duty; wicked act; sin.

Who is responsible? Aren't we all? We all live in the world together, after all. I find it difficult to point my white, entitled, priveleged finger down south and tell "those people" "down there" to stay put. To work at it where they at, it'll come together.

Okay, okay. And so we think about that some and we come to a point where we begin to ask questions of ourselves and think that maybe some laws need to be relaxed, some things shuffled around, and some very stiff punishments levied on farmers who hire "illegals."

I have a problem with that, too, though, I guess, because who the hell is going to benefit from imposing stiff fines on these farmers? If we put on our happy democracy mask, we can give the thumbs up to the federal government and assume that they will funnell those collected fines into something productive.

And if a person feels that bombing and occupying other countries while maintaining a social infrastructure of fear and cheap goods, cheap processed food, and cheap shopping mall morals is productive, well then I guess it's all good.

But I know, I stepped away from the issue at hand, immigration.

Or did I? To me, it's all connected, it's all part of an entrenched, insidious power structure designed to satisfy citizens in the middle by filling them with access to hamburgers, pasta, magazines, new gadgets, and bumper stickers. The buzzing message behind all of these commodities is: "Freedom is great, ain't it? We're the bestest!!"

But this isn't freedom. These are just commodities.

To turn our attention back to others, though:

south of the U.S. border (because I have learned that this isn't just about "Mexicans," there are other ethnicities and countries "south of the border"), huge communities of people are suffering. To attempt to mediate this, some of them are willing to put their asses on the line and smuggle themselves across a border. Some also do this legally.

on a December morning in 1984 in Bhopal, India, a U.S. corporation went horribly wrong and has yet to take accountability for the ongoing loss of life and hellish conditions suffered by the people there. Why does bitter, silly Pathless bring this up? Because he is a party-pooper? Naw, y'all. It's just that it happened, y'know, and because it is a grossly inhumane, striking example of the disregard for humanity and rape--yes, rape--of the planet that is going on so that Americans and other "civilized" countries can wipe with 2-ply cotton puffy toilet paper, so that we can go on touristy vacations in Costa Rica and Kenya, so that we can tune into our favorite soaps and reality TV shows day after unsatisfying day.

Immigration law? What?


small
cookies.

[cyberpi]

Pathless, to me that was another zoom in. A zoom into some generalizations encompassing a race, ethnicity, or large body of people. I agree with you those are injust generalizations, but I think in a different way. Let me explore an exercise of law with you. Tell me where I go wrong and where you disagree:

I view that LAW is an agreement between people, and I wish to make an agreement with you...
Do you agree that I am wrong if I hold you to a different set of standards than I do myself?
Do you agree that I should NOT judge you by your skin color?
Do you agree that I should NOT condemn you if your friends or neighbors commits a crime?
Do you agree that if I am dishonest, and break into your family's home to steal, that I should at least be apprehended, judged, and rebuked?
Do you agree that if I senselessly murder people and will not change, that I should at least be punished or condemned?
Do you agree that if I am a liar telling lies that cause harm, and will not confess or repent, that I should be liable?
Do you agree that I am a hypocrite if I hold you to a different set of standards than I do myself?

I think that is a crude example of law. I seek to resolve conflicts by agreement... not that there is any conflict between you and I, but just to demonstrate what I consider LAW is. Do you seek to find a way to agree... or do you seek iniquity?

[Pathless]

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, cyberpi?

I don't know whether to answer those questions with more questions or what. Here's what I see when I look at the questions you would like me to answer:

LAW LAW LAW
either/or
with me or against me?
BUT LAW!!!!
I MEAN LAW!
You could go to jail, or hell.
should not
Should not
Should NOT!
wrong wrong wrong
standards LAW standards
black/white
dichotomoy
me/you
right/wrong
good/bad

I don't know, it all sounds so intimidating and medieval. Let me go get my sword and law codex.

Oh, wait. I don't have those things. But I do have a pocket knife. And a book of poetry. Ooooooh, and a pencil, and some watercolors, and music... so much music.

Oh, alright, I'm wandering way off topic. Pretty soon I'll just log off and go about my spicy life.

I'll answer your questions in this way: I don't believe that laws are the standard that we should be holding our humanity up to. Laws are cold, dead things. Sometimes they might serve a purpose. They are also often corrupted, abused, and even disregarded when it is in the interest of those in power.

I believe in the power of the human heart. The soul of humanity could bathe this planet in more than electric light. We could all be swimming in soul light and Love. If there is a law, it is to love. Love each other. We must love. Love your sister, your mother, your brother, your father. Love the animals, the plants, the crusty mud on the bottom of your shoe. The best laws are the ones written in our human hearts, not the inked ones on paper, so often tossed aside out of convenience or special interest, so often revised. These laws of ours, the true ones that we feel with the fiber of our spirits, they're quirky, colorful, variable, individualized, flowing, and can't be written down. They are beautiful, benevolent, and the expressions of goddesses and gods.

I do look forward to our discussion here. You challenge me to think and refine my feelings, shape them into words. And no matter how pissy I might get with you, I appreciate being challenged to articulate my position and make critical arguments. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much longer I am going to find this fun, challenging, and amusing. I guess I don't mind presenting my opinion to you from different angles, but I don't so much want to end up repeating myself. That just gets boring.

Peace to you and many happy returns on your search for Church,
Pathless