Immigrants actually help the job market, at least in California

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by wil

are you ready to pay one dollar per radish? ten dollars a tomato? twenty dollars for an artichoke? Where will you earn the money to pay that?

I would say yes, but the price won't increase very much. In a global economy imports would increase and the American farmer using illegal immigrants would take most the hit. I would also vote to eliminate argiculture subsidies and eliminate all trade barriers to foreign food. For all I know the price of food could drop. Right now the American farmer is being propped up and that is what is applying pressure to the border. My taxes decrease by removing subsidies, and the money the government takes on imports just increases the price of the food. It is like a gasoline tax but on the food instead. Then I'd save a lot of taxpayer money on a giant fence, and from what I hear on this thread... a disfunctional INS. Then I'm helping offset the oil rich countries with increased agriculture in others and richer farmers in third world countries. Sign me up... where do I sign? Where do I vote?

Yeah, I know I'm going to be popular with the American farmer... but there is always a market for homegrown fresh food too.

Originally Posted by wil

Complain enough about it...the gov't will solve it...how many Amero's will it cost for a litre of biodesiel...I don't know...but the guy harvesting the corn to make it will have a work permit!

It is that Faith in Government that concerns me most... with an increased global economy, the governments are becoming routinely involved in foreign affairs, visits and agreements. The Bush administration certainly has. Those deals, in order to be lawful... require a collective agreement of the people of each country. That is what would propagate democracy. Otherwise government is becoming more and more oppressive as population increases, and global trade increases, but the same quantity of leaders are making the deals over the people. In Iraq the safest day was the day everyone voted... so make every day a day to vote on something.

I'm all for what improves lawful ties between the individuals of different countries... thank you for sharing and bringing up the Government's vision with the Amero.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Wil,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by wil

it is quite simple...

perhaps it is too simple for me to really understand. you've made several claims based upon supposed factual situations regarding taxation and monies contributed to the system by beings that are not part of the system. when i ask you for the source of this information you refer to your personal knowledge.

whilst i cannot dispute what you know i feel that it would be rather foolish of me to accept your claims without some external source of verification.

the continued admonition that it "is simple" and "just do the math" are insufficient to compel me to accept your argument without some sort of reference.

you find your numbes for the number of unemployed in America...and find your numbers for the estimated number of illegals... which is larger?

do you not see the inherent problem with this statement?

as for the illegals paying taxes...I've seen it, I've described it, it is all quite simple and our gov't condones it...sorry I can't describe it clearer...without simply yelling louder...

repeating your claims is not the same as explaining them in another manner. your description is clear and i understand it.

look at your deductions, ask your employer what it would look like if you were single and zero...and then imagine getting no refund...that is what they pay.

yes, that is what i claimed for my taxation rates when i was employed by another organization.

however, you are seemingly missing the point.

those taxes were paid by me, tied to my SSN and therefore, contributions to the system on my behalf. a person with a stolen SSN is *not* contributing to the system on their behalf.

you are confusing money for people and that seems to be a wrong view of this situation.

movie stars and sports figures are not paid on their abilities but the gullibility of the american public, buying tshirts, hats, tickets, supporting commercials at the rate of 2.5 million dollars for 30 seconds!... As long as we go to the marketing trough and buy what Ed McMahon feeds us...they will continue to do so and collect millions for their efforts. Are they worth it, yes because they make their owners money.

if you find beings that enjoy being entertained to be gullible, then that is your right. that seems to be, however, a strange view to take on the matter. if you are not entertained by someone, do not pay them. pretty straight forward there.

raise the wages to living wages so people will want the jobs...

are you ready to pay one dollar per radish? ten dollars a tomato? twenty dollars for an artichoke? Where will you earn the money to pay that?

nice sophistry but that is insufficent to make your point.

i will earn the money to pay for my goods like all other beings that earn money to pay for their goods. moreover, a being can plant their own garden to harvest fresh vegetables and fruits.

i shall have to consider that my point remains valid with the argument that you have presented against it for you have been unable to substantiate any of your claims.

my argument, by the way, is that illegal immigration is not good for a society whereas legal immigration is good for a society.

metta,

~v