In the beginning was the Logos - Page 3

flowperson · 02-09-2007, 11:54 PM

Earl...wonderful post. You are a truly wise man.

It all makes more sense to me now when I recall the words spoken to Moses on Siani, "I am that I am", or alternatively since I've found that both interpretations are likely to be authentic,"I am (the one) who brings all things into existence".

Yes..and the Greeks were on this thread likely as not when Gnostic beliefs were passed about. Knowing is surely the center of all. The 'dreamer's dream' as Peter Gabriel would sing much later.

A really great thread everyone !!

flow....

juantoo3 · 02-10-2007, 12:57 AM

Kindest Regards, Inhumility!

Quote:

Originally Posted by inhumility

What are these numbers, which you all understand, and I don't? Would somebody explain for me, please?

I didn't mean to overlook your question last night. The numbers are the Strong's Concordance numbers, in this case for the Greek words. One would use the Strong's to look up a word in a Bible verse, find the number, and match the definition. That is one way a student can look to understand the actual words used and what the accepted general meanings are without actually going through the trouble of learning the languages of Greek and Hebrew (a short cut that saves many years of instruction.) In this way one can see how various words are used in the Bible. One classic illustration would be the English word "hell." In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word is "sheol" and roughly means "the grave." In the New Testament, however, there are three different words with three different meanings that are translated into English as "hell." This is elaborated on elsewhere, so I will not repeat the lesson here. I bring it up only to show why the Strong's is used and the reason why, because in this instance the word translated in English to "the Word" carries a great deal of nuance in the original Greek that is lost in translation.

Prober · 02-10-2007, 03:18 AM

Deut 6:5 "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

Jesus said...

Luke 10:27 "...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Does the addition by Jesus of "mind" in the NT have anything to do with the developing Logos concept?

(don't really know how to phrase it...)

Thomas · 02-10-2007, 02:35 PM

Does the addition by Jesus of "mind" in the NT have anything to do with the developing Logos concept?

I'm not sure we can push the connection that far, but you are in the right area. Certainly Luke had an Hellenic education, and so to disregard the mind in the constituent of the person would have been something of an oversight for him. The Logos is Johannine, and he may have drawn on HellenoHebraic sources for the concept, Philo of Alexandria for one, rather than directly from the Greek.

The Hebrew mentality did not give quite the primacy to mind as did the Greek, but that is not to say they were unaware or ignored it, they simply expressed it differently – the heart:

"And thou shalt speak to all the wise of heart, whom I have filled
with the spirit of wisdom," (Exodus 28:3)

"I have put wisdom in the heart of every skilful man," (31:6)

"And all the men that were wise of heart, to accomplish the work of
the tabernacle," (36:8)

So the Hebrews saw 'wisdom' as practical, and their anthropology is a practical anthropology, rather than speculative which I think we can say defines in some part the Hellenic mind.

Thomas

Prober · 02-10-2007, 03:03 PM

Thanks, Thomas!

Thomas · 02-10-2007, 03:21 PM

Afterthought ...

We cannot equate the Hebrew 'heart' to the Hellenic 'mind' entirely, without offence to the Hebrew notion ... the heart comprises the whole person, as well as the core of being, or essential nature (which the Hellenic mind does not), and this was carried into Christianity and, subsequently, Western thought. So we qualify a feeling, knowing, etc., with 'in my heart' or moreso, 'in my heart of hearts' suggests, to me at least, a much deeper and meaningful knowing then when we say 'in my mind'.

But yes, I think we can say the Lucan thought, along with the Johannine, the Stoic, etc., are all philosophical streams that fed the idea of the Logos.

Certainly the Christians saw they had much in common with the Stoic ideal. The four virtues of stoicism, for example, are wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance ...

Wisdom says "If anyone loves righteousness, Wisdom's labours are virtues; for she teaches temperance and prudence, justice, and courage." (8:7) and the author being an Alexandrian Jew, there is no doubt he would have been schooled in Stoic philosophy.

The author of Wisdom (as the author of Proverbs) hypostasises 'Wisdom' and so 'prudence' replaces her in the Stoic quaternary.

Thomas

Prober · 02-10-2007, 03:24 PM

"as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he...", etc.

Thomas · 02-10-2007, 03:35 PM

Absolutely!

seattlegal · 02-10-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Deut 6:5 "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

Jesus said...

Luke 10:27 "...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Does the addition by Jesus of "mind" in the NT have anything to do with the developing Logos concept?

(don't really know how to phrase it...)

Well, when I think of Mind and The Word, I think of how much more Mind is connected to "listening," {and "understanding,"} rather than to "speaking."

Quahom1 · 02-10-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Well, when I think of Mind and The Word, I think of how much more Mind is connected to "listening," {and "understanding,"} rather than to "speaking."

Interesting point...

Prober · 02-11-2007, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Well, when I think of Mind and The Word, I think of how much more Mind is connected to "listening," {and "understanding,"} rather than to "speaking."

"Be still and know that I AM G-d"

Prober · 02-11-2007, 02:24 PM

Re Jesus being 888 gematriacally, Lot's of stuff in the NT but I wanted to see what in the OT was 888.

Could only find the phrase "apostate from Israel".

Thoughts?

seattlegal · 02-11-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Quote:

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Well, when I think of Mind and The Word, I think of how much more Mind is connected to "listening," {and "understanding,"} rather than to "speaking."

"Be still and know that I AM G-d"

Well, that really resonates all over the place, philosophically!

Quahom1 · 02-11-2007, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Well, that really resonates all over the place, philosophically!

Quote:

"...Be still and know that I am God..."

Psalm 46:10

Actually, it is a command and a short meditation, designed to "square a man" during times of worry (which by the way is a sin)...

Prober · 02-11-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

One more interesting little thing that ties in with the musical analogy is that the whole tone between the two perfect fourths is itself discordanent. Which reminds me of Jesus saying that he comes not to bring peace, but with a sword. Maybe that's pushing the analogy too far.

Chris

Okay! So check this - does it fit in...?

The hebrew priests blasted such a horrible discordant note that the walls of Jerico collapsed. Sound used to create and destroy?

I've read some tibetan texts about moving objects with sound, etc.