Iraq No Win Situation

Sacredstar · 12-02-2004, 04:31 AM

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1130-25.htm

Virtual_Cliff · 12-04-2004, 01:32 AM

This article tries to be polite about the American invasion. It shouldn't be. I was in Arabia in the 70s when the US was still held in high regard but even then it was looked down on for its decadence. Now in the Middle East and throughout the non-Western world the US and sadly the UK is simply despised. If the US thinks Iraq will ever in a thousand years "come around" it is making a profound mis-judgement.

BluejayWay · 12-04-2004, 02:19 AM

I couldn't open that link, but I agree that we've painted ourselves into a corner here. I've had the pleasure of meeting a group of Iraqis some time back, before the First Gulf War. They struck me as proud, intelligent people, who cared about their country and their families and their people. Perhaps they weren't too excited about fighting for Saddam, but it did not surprise me to see Iraquis ready to defend their country, at any cost.

The United States is led by an ideological cabal with a strong Apocalyptic current coursing through its veins--as incredible a misuse of religious feeling and sybology as the radical Islam that they have made our enemiy.

Thee worry about terrorists with the bomb, while the rest of the world worries about them with the bomb...

alexa · 12-04-2004, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluejayWay

The United States is led by an ideological cabal with a strong Apocalyptic current coursing through its veins--as incredible a misuse of religious feeling and sybology as the radical Islam that they have made our enemiy.

Enemy for eternity. USA will never find peace ever again. USA's governement failed on history class.

Sacredstar · 12-04-2004, 03:05 PM

Every great nation has destoryed itself with its own hand through transgression of the universal laws.

Thou shall not kill!

in thought, word or deed

Thou shall not control and dominate nature itself.

The UK now have a choice to make in the next general election. I did some research on the net and discovered that a majority if respondents had moved away from political parties. They were saying that they intend to vote for the best man for the job in their local area, so the outcome of the next election here will be very interesting. My view is that whoever votes for a warmonger has blood on their own hands......

My response to the recent US election

CHRIST THE LIONHEART

As the shock of the US elections ripples around the world, the disbelief and heartache for every life that has been lost. I now understand what it means to be a Lion Heart! Around the world the passion of Christ roars within US, for injustice and corruption to be eliminated, for the people's voice at the grass roots to be heard, and for US domination of world events to cease.

The Christ message that springs from the well within me, for those spiritual people in the US that are preaching to the rest of the world is this: -

“Please get your own house and country in order before you preach to us!”

Europe is uniting against any single super power, please join us and yield to peace, freedom and equality for all humankind. Communicating from the heart of compassion, and across all frontiers, or choose to stand alone against the rest of the world.

We now prepare to begin the campaign for the UK elections and the message is very clear, use your vote to back Blair , and his warmongers, and you have blood on your hands as a partner in crime. For there is no separation, we are one in creation and each individual has a responsibility for every life that is lost needlessly, every child that is drugged, abused, or depressed, each voice must be heard.

May the results in the US inspire us all, to make the best choice, our choices effect group consciousness and the future of humanity and our children’s lives.

So vote for no more ‘wake up calls’, no more war, no more tragedy, no more pollution, no more alliances with power hungry, profiteering, warmongers like Bush, who performs his monstrosities in full view while wrapping himself in the cloths of piety and righteousness. Thou shall not kill!

When a child oversteps the boundaries it is the parent’s responsibility to help the child to understand how and why. Now it is time for Bush and his followers to hear our message louder then before; we shall not support you in war anymore! Please put down your gun, stop dropping your bombs, and hear the message of the world.

Here in the UK we can now learn from the US elections and vote for equality, freedom, peace, justice, and unity consciousness, to bring forth the principles of the heart. We can overcome difficulties through communication, trust, balance, harmony, sharing, caring and the power of love.

Let us all walk our talk with Christ the Lion Heart and state that enough is enough! We will energise people to innovate change, GOD’s will-to-good, compelled by love into compassionate action. Let us all swim in unison and BE the saving force. Let the flock come together in positive conscious intent and create the world we wish it to be:-

A Kingdom of Love.

Peace be with you all,

Sacredstar

Vajradhara · 12-06-2004, 03:02 PM

Namaste all,

interesting thread.

not that it's all that surprising to see the type of political views that we have here, this is an international forum after all.

i, oddly, have a much different view that has been expressed here thus far.

far from unwinnable is the Iraq situation, in my estimation. though i suppose it may depend on what we deem the word "winnable" to actually mean

for my take, this terms signifies the establishment of a democratically elected Iraqi government with full sovernigty. i'm not sure what others may mean when they use this term.

of course, i fundamentally disagree with SacredStars assesment that if you vote for someone that commits a crime you are equally guilty. that is the type of thinking that was prevelant back in Goatama Buddhas day... he stood against it then, and i stand against it now.

each being is responsble for their own actions. nobody elses. as i said, i've a different view on these things.

my view of military action is, also, not consonant with my Buddhist religious views... i'm more of a Taoist with regards to pragmatic military matters.

in any event, i see several strategems that could lead to "winning" as i've described the term above. it simply remains to be seen which of these strategies is most viable. the tactical sitation is very fluid right now, however, the overall strategic situtation hasn't changed much in the past 8 years or so, in my view.

Sacredstar · 12-06-2004, 03:58 PM

Dear Vajradhara

How do you reconcile the difference between being responsible for one's own actions and also being interdependent of each other?

E.g we are all ONE in group consciousness, so what the individual chooses then impacts like a pebble in the pond reverberating out much further afield.

Creating not only individual karma but also group/country karma?

Another analogy a mother buys the food with her best intent, but yet her family are allergic to this food and they become very ill?

Who is responsible for the family and the ill-health of the community that she shares?

We are all part of the community, one large planetary family are we not?

being love

Sacredstar

Vajradhara · 12-06-2004, 11:19 PM

Namaste Sacredstar,

thank you for the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

How do you reconcile the difference between being responsible for one's own actions and also being interdependent of each other?

i suppose that i don't see the issue. each person is responsible for their own actions, e.g. the actions which they intend. they are, if you will, the seeds that we plant in our own garden. nobody else reaps the fruit of the seeds that we plant. in short, Buddhist interdependence isn't the same as understood in Western materialists philosophies.

Quote:

E.g we are all ONE in group consciousness, so what the individual chooses then impacts like a pebble in the pond reverberating out much further afield.

this would more properly be a Sanatan Dharma view (Hindu). Buddhism does not posit that there is a single, collective consciousness from which our individual consciousnesses are part.

Quote:

Creating not only individual karma but also group/country karma?

karma is created on an individual level, a group level, a city level, a country level and a world level. karma is intentional action. if a large group of people all commit the same intentional action, that creates "group" karma for them. however, each being therein does not reap the fruit of their shared karma the same, as this is a function of several other factors and is mitigated by ones' praxis.

Quote:

Another analogy a mother buys the food with her best intent, but yet her family are allergic to this food and they become very ill?

Who is responsible for the family and the ill-health of the community that she shares?

she has a family with a food allergy which she's unaware of?

in any case, there is no possible way to determine this information, from the Buddhist vis a vie the view of karma. since karma will go from rebirth to rebirth, it's quite possible that the right causes and conditions for a particular karmic seed to ripen will not be present for many lifetimes. when they are, it ripens. we are not really able to see the karmic consquences of our actions that extend through multiple lives until we are more awake.

Quote:

We are all part of the community, one large planetary family are we not?

it depends on how you mean this. remember, in the Buddhist teachings, Two Truths, we declare there to be, Relative and Absolute. what you and i are discussing is soley in the realm of the Relative for that is where our words are. they can never be anything but in the relative. the Absolute is beyond our ability to properly verbalize and, perhaps, cognize.. it is, as they say, an ineffable experience.

so... in an Absolute sense, i'd say that yes, we are one large planetary family. in the Relative sense, no.

in any event... in my experience, many Western folks have a rather romantic understanding of Buddhism and so forth. often they ascribe thoughts and ideas to us that are completely foreign! it can be amusing, when you're in the right frame of mind.

the Buddha was not a idealistic dreamer living in a fantasy world. far from it. he was a pragmatist that lived fully in the world of everyday concerns.
the important point to bear in mind, from the Buddhist view at least, is that it's not simply actions that carry karmic reprucussions, it's a specific type of action. intentional action.

you'll note, undoubtedly, that it is rather difficult to actually discern someones true intention in any given situation, let alone a situation as fraught with potential peril as politics.

the Buddha was not opposed to violence for the sake of being opposed to it or for some higher moral imperative. the Buddhist teaching is that refraining from violence helps one make progress along the spiritual path more quickly.

wow... we're way off the topic of this thread now.. and i feel rather poor about the derailing!

Sacredstar · 12-07-2004, 12:18 AM

Dear Vajradhara

Thank you for the further explanation. I feel that Karma is important to the topic so once again thank you for sharing more insights.

A friend attended a recent talk by the Dalai Lama in Liverpool and I feel sure she said that he was talking about the community in terms of group consciousness and the impact of our individual action and intent.

How will Buddhists respond if at all to the cutting edge science that is proving many of these concepts?

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Vajradhara · 12-07-2004, 07:29 PM

Namaste SacredStar,

thank you for the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

How will Buddhists respond if at all to the cutting edge science that is proving many of these concepts?

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

we change

Buddhism has no issues with changing it's teachings to more accurately reflect the world in which we find ourselves.

Buddhism rejected the atomist theory a long time ago, for instance. the atomist theory being that all matter is comprised of tiny, inseprable bits, call Atoms. our modern science has refuted the atomist view completely and, as a consequence, rather supported the Buddhist view in this area.

in the end it's really not an issue for us. Buddhism has no teachings to cling to and no dogma to die for. not to say that some people don't feel this way, however, Buddhism isn't really like that.

that being said, i'm not aware of any peer reviewed scientific journals that are publishing material that validates a "universal" consciousness. do you have some links that i can review or some books that may contain these peer reviewed scientific experiments?

Sacredstar · 12-08-2004, 01:03 AM

Dear Vajradhara

Great thank you, yes that as been my understanding of Buddhism so thank you for the confirmation.

On the science William Tiller and the work going on at Princeton is really the cutting edge work. I am not a science expert so I will email our science and medical consultant and get back to you.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Sacredstar · 12-08-2004, 01:13 AM

This is an on-going project at Princeton

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

Sacredstar · 12-08-2004, 01:15 PM

This is also very interesting

On 9/11, the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research institute found that a significant measurement perturbation, or change, was noted by their 32 data recording instruments placed around the world - a couple of hours BEFORE the first plane struck the World Trade Center. Inspired by this indication that a field of mass consciousness exists, Bell and his then guest host, George Noory, had issued specific requests to their vast audience, challenging their listeners to act collectively in the field of consciousness - in order to achieve specific outcomes. At the time of this writing, the last such challenge was for the audience to visualize a resolution to the Washington "Sniper Crisis." The two suspects who are now in custody were arrested in the early morning hours immediately following this show. No one was injured in the capture.

Vajradhara · 12-08-2004, 02:47 PM

Namaste sacredstar,

thank you for the post and the link.

hmm... it seems to me that the study is implying that concsiousness acts as a non-local field.

this is rather different than saying that there is a universal, single, consciousness of which we are all part.

i really have no issues with consciousness and non-locality.. in point of fact, that is a fairly decent view of how some of our philosophical schools posit consciousness and, predicated on the EPR Paradox experiments, i think that we have empirical proof that, aspects at least, of consciousness operate in this fashion.

Virtual_Cliff · 12-10-2004, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i fundamentally disagree with SacredStars assesment that if you vote for someone that commits a crime you are equally guilty.

That is democracy though. Government for the people, BY THE PEOPLE etc. If our government is misbehaving, it is our fault. In a dictatorship there is some excuse. If we really all believed and campaigned hard enough we could have a peaceful government. This is often repeated but still needs to be remembered: all that is needed for evil (whatever) to triumph is for good people to do nothing. Another world is possible.