Is Christianity too fixated with Salavation?

foundationist · 04-15-2003, 06:48 PM

This topic indirectly arose in another thread - so it would be interesting to see the responses from current and future members.

Is Christianity really too fixated Salvation? If so, why? Is it down to denominationalism, Church power and control, or simply a personal need on an individual level to feel vindicated in their beliefs and actions?

Dave the Web · 04-20-2003, 12:02 AM

It most certainly is terribly fixated with Salavation. I am quite sure that Jesus could only be horrified at how he fought against the Pharisees, only see a following around him become entirely the same! The whole issue of Salavation is one of fear and threats. How many feel that without Salavation they should not be graceful before the sight of God? Quite astonishing.

exastra · 04-20-2003, 01:43 AM

yes. the issue of salvation is the defining element of Christianity... is its foundation, deriving power from peoples' insecurity. it reduces people to dependent children calling out to mommy, all alone in the night. we are urged/ manipulated into seeking forgiveness and self worth through blind faith at the expense of morality.

Dave the Web · 04-23-2003, 10:15 PM

Salavation is about making people feel worthless, so they will feel a need to accept 'Salavation' in the first place. Cults use it as a recruiting method. It is one of the areas of Christianity that feels so far from the light.

mac1 · 04-24-2003, 12:14 AM

The thing that bugs me about salvation, is not the concept of being devoid of sin, but those who claim to have achieved it - most notably priests. Don't get me wrong, this isn't an attack on priests, just the ones who wrongly think they have some sort of divine superiority over the rest of us. I have met far too many priests who claim be completely devoid of the temptations of sin, and speak in an arrogant manner belittleing all those below them. Surely true salvation is an almost unreachable goal, being ordained should not give someone the right to preach to the masses in an arrogant and pretentiousness manner. Preaching is perfectly reasonable (and often required by many religions on the whole), but delusions of perfection, and infallibilty really agrovate me. It is a much avoided subject, but most people are aware of pedophiliac subcultures recently revealed to exist in the catholic church, predominantly in Ireland. Had these priests (and those who commited such hanus sins of ommision by deliberately ignoring it) achieved "salvation"? [I won't insult your intelligence by answering that!] Salvation, or living a life devoid of sin is a goal shared by almost all cultures and religions to some degree, but it should remain that unreachable goal. Like a wise man who calls himself a wise man, someone who claims to have achieved salvation, is generally not going to be a saint, but a deluded biggot. Attempts to reach salvation, are still however the way to live an honest life, just don't be too quick to believe that you are "enlightened" or "devoid of the sins of the world" - chances are your not. The only person you are lying to is yourself!

brian · 05-21-2003, 11:11 AM

Absolutely - good post.

Dave the Web · 06-01-2003, 07:12 PM

How does someone promise what someone acnnot be sure of? If the nature of Salavation is to be accepted then only God truly knows who is saved and who is not saved. I do not think God subscribes to lists men write for themselves.

Hugh de Payen · 06-05-2003, 01:17 PM

Interesting post.

I think Christianity is quite pre-occupied with salvation, but it always seems to have it the wrong way round to me.

A Christian believes we're born in Sin and then have to spend a lifetime being saved from it. I tend to believe that we're born without any Sin whatsoever and spend a lifetime acquiring them.

Dave the Web · 06-13-2003, 11:57 AM

That is a most interesting point. Alas that it is also quite true.

WHKeith · 06-20-2003, 09:10 PM

exastra said salvation is THE defining point of Christianity. That may be more or less true, depending on the emphasis of your particular doctrine, but a purist might point out that it is the resurrection that is central. Without that, everything else is meaningless. (1 Corinthians 15:12 - 19.)

Certainly a wealth of Bible passages of the "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" variety (John 3:3) emphasize the necessity of a personal epiphany. A problem for modern Christianity is the fact that different denominations take the same words and understand them in different ways. I've known Baptists who insisted that salvation is effected ONLY by saying certain words in a certain way--being led through a confession, repentance, and a prayer for salvation. I've known Pentecostals who insisted you weren't saved unless you gave the evidence of a Baptism in the Holy Spirit, accompanied by speaking in tongues. And I've known Episcopalians who felt it didn't much matter what you did, so long as you knew which one was the salad fork. [Sorry, Siege and Polycarp. Couldn't resist!]

There are plenty of mainline denominational churches--and I'd include the 'Pisckies in this one--that place more emphasis on God's saving grace, a kind of on-going salvation possible through an on-going relationship with the savior. Of course, most Baptists would scream bloody murder at that!

A final thought: the more fundamentalist view emphasizes essentially that the world is broke, that WE'RE broke, and only salvation can reunite us with God. I dislike that emphasis. Many Christians see instead the beauty and wonder of God's creation, and ourselves as marvelous miracles, each of us, in our own right. For them, the emphasis on Christianity is not on salvation, but on God's deep and abiding love.

But then, I know Baptists who would disagree with THAT! To get there, you have to downplay a lot of Scripture that seems to say otherwise.

Polycarp · 06-21-2003, 01:58 AM

Quote:

There are plenty of mainline denominational churches--and I'd include the 'Pisckies in this one--that place more emphasis on God's saving grace, a kind of on-going salvation possible through an on-going relationship with the savior. Of course, most Baptists would scream bloody murder at that!

On target, Bill. Though I'd say that I can put my trust in God and His promises, and that I have a job to do, right here and now, and I'm not too worried about what He'll do with me later on. He is, after all, a loving Father -- or else everybody's got it wrong as far as Christianity's concerned, because that's what Jesus thought He is.

The imago Dei theology of the Eastern Fathers and of Duns Scotus plays an interesting counterpoint to the Augustinian view of Bill's last paragraph, too.

Polycarp · 06-21-2003, 01:58 AM

... uh, I meant "next-to-last paragraph"

Siege · 06-21-2003, 02:15 AM

One thing I've come away with in my discussions with Fundamentalist Christians is this. I've encountered several such people who need to have a line drawn between Saved and Unsaved so they can be sure they are right. Basically, it seems to come down to "Well, if everyone can get in, what's the point of getting in?"

Having grown up a perennial outsider, I come in from the opposite approach: "If not everyone gets in, how can I be sure I won't be left out?" On a different message board, Polycarp and I have been involved in some rather lively discussions about who exactly Christ's death and resurrection, complete with dueling Bible verses referring those which imply only those who specifically accept Christ as their Saviour, and those which refer to all mankind.

I know WHKeith to be a decent, honorable, moral person. I therefore refuse to believe he will be "kept out of heaven", whatever that means, because he is no longer a Christian. It offends my sense of logic and justice. On the other hand, I can see how someone who doesn't know him could say, "Well, if he gets to go off and do whatever he wants and still gets into heaven, what's the point of being a Christian?"

CJ

Polycarp · 06-21-2003, 04:23 AM

[quote author=Seige link=board=7;threadid=105;start=msg924#msg924 date=1056158144]
One thing I've come away with in my discussions with Fundamentalist Christians is this. I've encountered several such people who need to have a line drawn between Saved and Unsaved so they can be sure they are right. Basically, it seems to come down to "Well, if everyone can get in, what's the point of getting in?"

Having grown up a perennial outsider, I come in from the opposite approach: "If not everyone gets in, how can I be sure I won't be left out?" On a different message board, Polycarp and I have been involved in some rather lively discussions about who exactly Christ's death and resurrection, complete with dueling Bible verses referring those which imply only those who specifically accept Christ as their Saviour, and those which refer to all mankind.

I know WHKeith to be a decent, honorable, moral person. I therefore refuse to believe he will be "kept out of heaven", whatever that means, because he is no longer a Christian. It offends my sense of logic and justice. On the other hand, I can see how someone who doesn't know him could say, "Well, if he gets to go off and do whatever he wants and still gets into heaven, what's the point of being a Christian?"

CJ
[/quote]

Can I get away with a "Me Too" post here? Because IMHO Siege said it all right there.

Iacchus · 07-18-2003, 06:01 PM

Does anyone believe in the afterlife? If it exists, then I suppose it should be addressed. Afterall, isn't this really what religion is supposed to prepare us for?

And yet I believe it's entirely possible, much as you say, to get the wrong idea and make a "big fixation" out of it. Which is probably why many religions don't address it outright.