is islam a religion of peace?

paul · 09-16-2006, 12:03 AM

i don't know the whole story of what the pope is suppose to have said.

i only heared that he is suppose to have quoted some christian emperor saying mohammed brought evil and inhumanity, it's said it was taken out of context.
maybe he was expressing how religions can seem to one another because of the behaviour of some of it's followers, lets face it those in the name of christianity have also been guilty, and maybe he mentioned this also.

why are muslims burning an image of the pope, what's all that about?

if they are protesting about what it may seem the pope is suppose to have said, and if they beleive islam is really a peaceful religion, why is their demonstration not of peace?

taijasi · 09-16-2006, 12:25 AM

I think it's easy enough to understand the reaction, even outrage. I mean, come on, why invoke this kind of narrow perspective (the words of a former pope) ... when the pope ought to be bending over backwards to restore AMNITY, and harmony, among all faiths - especially where fresh wounds currently exist???

What did he think he was going to accomplish? Was he having a bellyache from something bad he ate for breakfast? Was he, perhaps, just reading blindly the words on a page, prepared by someone on his staff that is totally ignorant of what's going on in the world???

Someone recently quoted a list of 7 things from Revelation, that the Lord is supposed to pretty much disapprove of. Well, #7, I think, was the sowing or stirring up of discord amongst the brethren. Right now, if there were such a thing, I'd have to say Pope goofus here is on God's ****list. He's certainly on my list for #1 SCREWUPS of the month.

Seriously, first the US has to get an idiot into the office of head political dictator ... someone who can't even read his own damn name off a queue-card, and decides to declare war on other countries on a whim ... and now, the Roman Catholic potato pontiff demonstrates his UTTER lack of tact, diplomacy or really a shred of common sense.

HELP HELP HELP ... STOP THE BUS - I WANT TO GET OFF (I think we're all bozos here)

fairly well disgusted,

taijasi/andrew

paul · 09-16-2006, 12:45 AM

thanks for your reply,
as i said i don't know the full context of what the pope spoke of this.

even if what he said was completely out of order, the burning of the pope is not a peaceful reaction to me.

if this is how islam as a religion deals even with such blasphemy then to me it doesn't appear a religion of peace.

taijasi · 09-16-2006, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul

if this is how islam as a religion deals even with such blasphemy then to me it doesn't appear a religion of peace.

Neither is torture, cutting off people's heads, and so forth. Ready to condemn a whole religion because of what SOME people do? That's up to you. But if that's your reaction, and your choice, then WHY do you think or feel it is so strange for Muslims to respond to this screw-up of the Pope in such a way? Sounds like you're saying that you CAN understand dishing it out .. but that you can't TAKE it. Eh?

I guess if the reaction were physical violence you'd feel better? Man, maybe it's time to THINK about what protests like this are ABOUT. It's about stupidity, and ignorance, or in the very least, in this case, it's about the pope displaying that he obviously has no tact and very little common sense. How easy it is to condemn something ... when it's not YOUR entire religion, and YOUR most revered Prophet, that has been offended.

Ohhh, he didn't mean anything by it. COME OFF IT. This was just plain stupid. If it wasn't meant callously, then fine, I can grasp that. But the Pope is in VERY hot water right now. He put himself there. And I'm afraid you're going to just have to stand aside, and PRAY that this man learns quickly - from his folly.

What a nice, snappy little remark it is to say, "this isn't a religion of peace," because some people choose to react to offense ... in ways that you consider extreme. Ya know what? So-called "Christian martyrs" and heroes bomb abortion clinics, and also lynch people because of the color of the their skin ... all in the name of Jeeeeesus, the supposed Prince of Peace, and because "God told them to," so does that make Christianity a violent religion?

YES, it apparently does. OBVIOUSLY this is the case, based on your own logic, and hastiness in condemning the reaction of some Muslims. You would judge an entire religion based on the actions of the few.

Bah, why am I bothering.

andrew

paul · 09-16-2006, 10:11 AM

you misunderstand me.
i feel these acts of burning the pope are far from peaceful.

i'm not saying all muslims respond this way, i'm asking?

i'm trying to understand what you are saying from your post, are you saying muslims should react this way, or do you admit it's not the way to react, but itself portrays islam as a voilent religion?

i have no problem with criticism of the pope, i'm not even catholic.

i've dished out nothing, i'm not even defending the pope, or the evil many have commited using the name christianity.
i'm trying to understand the muslim reaction, and if muslims here agree or disagree with it, do you or not?

is islam a peaceful religion is my question, i seek the fruit of it, no offence, but you yourself have not displayed such in your post.

i'm not a muslim, i know little about it, i'm trying to understand and judge it fairly.

i want muslims to display to me of themselves how this religion is oeaceful.
we do see the evil some have done using the name islam, this can not be denied today, the same has be done using the name christianity and probably other religions.

i have sought of christianity one close to our time who is a true example and faithful to it, i beleive i found one so in mother teresa after reading one of her books.
i am reading gandhi's autobiography, i'm hoping to get something from this.

could you maybe reccomend a book of someone maybe close to our time, of the muslim faith, who is a true light of it in his life, maybe some modern day saint of it, as maybe some see mother teresa to christianity?

ii didn't say islam is not a religion of peace, i said:
"if this is how islam as a religion deals even with such blasphemy then to me it doesn't appear a religion of peace"

please consider what i'm saying here.
is this how "ISLAM AS A RELIGION deals even with such blasphemy?
do you agree with this reaction yourself?

if islam is a peaceful religion, then people need to see the fruit of this, even how some muslims even deal with such blasphemy of their religion.

maybe some muslims could send the pope some book which may help him understand the peace of islam.
or maybe even welcome him to hear for himself the peace islam teaches, by one of it's teachers.
this is my opinion would be a more peaceful reaction.

taijasi · 09-16-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul

maybe some muslims could send the pope some book which may help him understand the peace of islam.
or maybe even welcome him to hear for himself the peace islam teaches, by one of it's teachers.
this is my opinion would be a more peaceful reaction.

This, I would say, is a good idea. Anything he can now, to try and make amends for his screwup, and expands his horizons ... would be good.

I'm not catholic either, and right now, I'm glad.

Namaskar,

taijasa

InLove · 09-16-2006, 02:13 PM

Hi paul--

I have found the following website to be quite helpful in understanding Islamic ideals.

http://my-muslim.com/

I think you will find that many, many Muslims do not support violence by extremists in the name of Islam.

My thoughts--hope this helps.

InPeace,
InLove

DT Strain · 09-20-2006, 11:40 PM

Out of curiosity, how many Muslims would agree with the following?:

1) There is nothing that a person could ever say, write, or draw about their personal opinions which would ever justify their death or even calling for their death.

2) There is no atrocity, oppression, offense, religious cause, political cause, or even military tactic that could ever justify the intentional selection of unarmed innocent civilians and children as the primary target for violence.

This is not a rhetorical question, asked in order to make some unstated point. Rather, it is something I would genuinely be interested to know.

Many thanks.
Sincerely,

Abdullah · 09-22-2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DT Strain

Out of curiosity, how many Muslims would agree with the following?:

1) There is nothing that a person could ever say, write, or draw about their personal opinions which would ever justify their death or even calling for their death.

2) There is no atrocity, oppression, offense, religious cause, political cause, or even military tactic that could ever justify the intentional selection of unarmed innocent civilians and children as the primary target for violence.

This is not a rhetorical question, asked in order to make some unstated point. Rather, it is something I would genuinely be interested to know.

Many thanks.
Sincerely,

Hi DT Strain,

I'm not an expert on Islam, so I couldn't give you a list of things which if said, can make the sayer liable to an Islamic death penatly, but I know that the Prophet [sm] had two poets, that used to recite malicious and abusive poetry against him, put to death, so there apperantly is some things, which if said, can make a person liable to the death penalty, under Islamic law.

There also was a Jew, Ka'ab ibn Asharaf, who showed open hostilty towards Islam and the Muslims, by expressing sorrow that the enemies of Islam got defeated in the battle of Badr, and encouraging the enemy to look forward to another fight with the Muslims, and by writing poems condemning the Prophet [sm] and the Muslims, and by writing obcence love poems, mentioning Muslim women; the Prophet [sm] had him put to death as well.

As regards to your question number two, there is indeed nothing at all that justifies the intentional killing of innocent civillians and children.

The Prophet [sm] has explicitly condemned and prohibbited the killing of the elderly, women, children, non-combatants, and monks.

The Prophet [sm] adressed a Muslim army who were about to go to war, in the following terms:

"Go to war in adherance to the religion of God. Never touch the elderly, women or children. Allways improve their situation and be kind to them. God loves those who are sincere" [Ahmad, diya'al-Din. alKamushKhanawi, Ramuz al-Ahadith. vol 1, 84/8]

The Messenger of Allah [sm] also clarified the attitude a Muslim soldier must adopt, even in the middle of a raging battle, in the following terms:

"Do not kill children. avoid them people who devote themselves to worshiping in churches! Never murder women and the elderly. Do not set trees on fire or cut them down. Never destroy houses!" [Ahmad, Diya'al-Din alkamushKhanawi, Ramuz al-Ahadith, vol 1, 76/12]

"...in Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battle fields and engage nobly...The Prophet Muhammed [sm] said: "Do not kill women or children or non-combatants, and do not kill old people or religious people", and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbi's. And he said "Do not cut down fruit bearing trees and do not poison the well of your enemies. ...". [Quote of Shiekh Hamza Yusuf, San Hose Mercury News, sep 15, 2001]

In Sahih Bukhari, Book of Jihad, Chapter 147, hadith 257-258, it says:

"A woman was found killed during one of the Apostle of God's battles. so the Apostle of God forbade the killing of women and children"

Abu Bakar As-Siddique [ra], the first Caliph of Islam, and one of the rightly guided caliphs, gave the following command to his army before the first Syrian expedition:

"Stop O people, that I may give you ten rules to keep by heart: Do not commit treachery, nor depart from the right path. You must not mutilate, nither kill a child or aged man or woman. Do not destroy a palm tree, nor burn it with fire and do not cut a fruitfull tree. You must not slay any of the flock or herds or the camels, save for your subsistence. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them to that which they have devoted their lives. You are likely, likewise, to find people who will present to you meals of many kinds. You amy eat, but do not forget to mention the name of Allah". [Tabari, Ta' rikh, 1, 1850, cited in Majid Khadduri, War and Peace in the Law of Islam, John Hopkins Press, Balitmore, 1955, pg. 102]

Allah Tha'ala says in the Holy Quran:

"Fight in the way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond limits. God does not love those who go beyond limits" [Quran, 2:190]

The above Quranic verse and hadiths shows unequivically, the true ethical nature of [fighting/war] Jihad in Islam, and it's clear to see from the above that the principles of Al-Qaida, of killing innocents in retalition for Muslim innocents, is totally wrong and not according to Islam.

There is a famous story from the past, that goes that, when some prisoners of war were caught by the Muslims, a Muslim suggested to the Muslim Commander [I think he may have been], "lets kill the prisoners of war!", the Muslim commander said, "No", the person said, "but they kill our prisoners of war", the muslim commander said, "they [the enemies] are not our teachers".

The above story is a classical example of how, no matter what inhumane and barbaric atrocity the enemies may inflict upon the Muslims, we have to remain steadfast on the righteous path and stick to the Islamic principles and not start copying the barbaric ways of our enemies.

hope that helps

Peace.

The Lord · 09-22-2006, 09:08 PM

It is disturbingly ironic that a Catholic Pope, and we all know the Catholic church's bloody history, quotes a Roman Emperor, and we all also know Roman and Christian Europe's bloody history, speaking to an audience of Germans, and we all know Germany's savage and bloody history, about how some other people are violent! He would have done better by using his own church and people as an example, if he really had good intentions, that is. The lamest thing, which is an indication of the insincerity of the Catholic Church, is their claim that he did not mean it that way. He was misunderstood! What? YOU do not quote someone in a paper YOU are writing to make a point YOU are making unless YOU agree fully with that person’s opinion. And to top it all, he did not apologize for his use of the quotation, but for the misguided violence that erupted because of it. In other words, he is apologizing to the world for the Muslim rage and violence (whatever that means), but not for his role or hateful beliefs. Rightfully, most Muslims do not accept this meaningless apology. Actually, Muslims should not ask for an apology because it would be meaningless even if direct and explicit. But Muslim scholars and historians should answer back with facts to put the so called Pope and his church in their place of honor among the most criminal, savage, repressive, and blood thirsty people the world has ever known.

It is easy for you and I, sitting in our recliners and watching TV, to theorize about and analyze the reaction of the simple, poor, and continuously beleaguered Muslims. However, their reaction is perfectly natural and acceptable. If everything about you have been attacked, belittled, and ridiculed without reason, if every thing you owned had been taken away from you by force and the only thing you had left is your faith, you tend to get really pissed off when that is unfairly threatened. Besides, faith is extremely personal. If the Pope, who is supposed to be a man of religion, does not understand that then he should resign his post and leave it to someone who is qualified and hopefully who is not a crusader and a war monger.

aburaees · 09-22-2006, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abdullah

"Go to war in adherance to the religion of God. Never touch the elderly, women or children. Allways improve their situation and be kind to them. God loves those who are sincere" [Ahmad, diya'al-Din. alKamushKhanawi, Ramuz al-Ahadith. vol 1, 84/8]

The Messenger of Allah [sm] also clarified the attitude a Muslim soldier must adopt, even in the middle of a raging battle, in the following terms:

"Do not kill children. avoid them people who devote themselves to worshiping in churches! Never murder women and the elderly. Do not set trees on fire or cut them down. Never destroy houses!" [Ahmad, Diya'al-Din alkamushKhanawi, Ramuz al-Ahadith, vol 1, 76/12]

"...in Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battle fields and engage nobly...The Prophet Muhammed [sm] said: "Do not kill women or children or non-combatants, and do not kill old people or religious people", and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbi's. And he said "Do not cut down fruit bearing trees and do not poison the well of your enemies. ...". [Quote of Shiekh Hamza Yusuf, San Hose Mercury News, sep 15, 2001]

In Sahih Bukhari, Book of Jihad, Chapter 147, hadith 257-258, it says:

"A woman was found killed during one of the Apostle of God's battles. so the Apostle of God forbade the killing of women and children"

Abu Bakar As-Siddique [ra], the first Caliph of Islam, and one of the rightly guided caliphs, gave the following command to his army before the first Syrian expedition:

"Stop O people, that I may give you ten rules to keep by heart: Do not commit treachery, nor depart from the right path. You must not mutilate, nither kill a child or aged man or woman. Do not destroy a palm tree, nor burn it with fire and do not cut a fruitfull tree. You must not slay any of the flock or herds or the camels, save for your subsistence. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them to that which they have devoted their lives. You are likely, likewise, to find people who will present to you meals of many kinds. You amy eat, but do not forget to mention the name of Allah". [Tabari, Ta' rikh, 1, 1850, cited in Majid Khadduri, War and Peace in the Law of Islam, John Hopkins Press, Balitmore, 1955, pg. 102]

Allah Tha'ala says in the Holy Quran:

"Fight in the way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond limits. God does not love those who go beyond limits" [Quran, 2:190]

Abdullah

Thank you for posting these, I had come across the following Hadith before;

Quote:

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:

Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama: The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

Though comparing this lone Hadith with those that you have just shared with us, it is apparent which should be the weightiest opinion in Islam.

Thanks again bro,
Salaam.

paul · 09-22-2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lord

It is disturbingly ironic that a Catholic Pope, and we all know the Catholic church's bloody history, quotes a Roman Emperor, and we all also know Roman and Christian Europe's bloody history, speaking to an audience of Germans, and we all know Germany's savage and bloody history, about how some other people are violent! He would have done better by using his own church and people as an example, if he really had good intentions, that is. The lamest thing, which is an indication of the insincerity of the Catholic Church, is their claim that he did not mean it that way. He was misunderstood! What? YOU do not quote someone in a paper YOU are writing to make a point YOU are making unless YOU agree fully with that person’s opinion. And to top it all, he did not apologize for his use of the quotation, but for the misguided violence that erupted because of it. In other words, he is apologizing to the world for the Muslim rage and violence (whatever that means), but not for his role or hateful beliefs. Rightfully, most Muslims do not accept this meaningless apology. Actually, Muslims should not ask for an apology because it would be meaningless even if direct and explicit. But Muslim scholars and historians should answer back with facts to put the so called Pope and his church in their place of honor among the most criminal, savage, repressive, and blood thirsty people the world has ever known.

It is easy for you and I, sitting in our recliners and watching TV, to theorize about and analyze the reaction of the simple, poor, and continuously beleaguered Muslims. However, their reaction is perfectly natural and acceptable. If everything about you have been attacked, belittled, and ridiculed without reason, if every thing you owned had been taken away from you by force and the only thing you had left is your faith, you tend to get really pissed off when that is unfairly threatened. Besides, faith is extremely personal. If the Pope, who is supposed to be a man of religion, does not understand that then he should resign his post and leave it to someone who is qualified and hopefully who is not a crusader and a war monger.

and who represents a religion of peace, when attacked, belittled, ridiculed?
one who reacts with voilence and aggression, or one who suffers it humbly with peace remaining in their heart?

and the pope has done nothing only speak his mind.
we don't have to beleive his words, we don't have to respect what he says as truth.
and if islam is to retaliate, proving him wrong in this, i don't think such actions as of burning an image of him, and the aggression shown does this.

it can be understood, if someone when treated voilently may react voilently to their opressor, but the pope isn't threatening anyone with voilence.
if he has accused islam of not been peaceful, then unpeaceful reactions only strengthen his argument.

to be behave peacefully is the greatest proof i can see of someone being peaceful.

if the pope really wanted to attack islam for not being a religion of peace, then he would have got a reaction displaying this greater than his words.

Terrence · 09-23-2006, 12:39 AM

You know what? I could say that Islam is not a religon of peace, but I'm not sure that would be right. I feel the problem isnt so much the religon as it is the people. Religions in and of itself isnt bad, but people by nature, are. G.K. Chesterton once said in a responce to Time magazine's question, "what is wrong with the world," said the following:

"Dir Sir,
In responce to your question 'what is wrong with the world.'
I am.
Yours Truely,
G.K. Chesterton"

Did you get that? Chesterton, as a Christian, had the understanding that the world does not have a hunger problem or pollution problem or money problem or war problem or disease problem, but instead a people problem. People are whats wrong with the world. I am the problem, you are, and on and on. The indwelling sin in us makes us the problem Read romands 3 and Jesus' words..."There is NONE Good, no not one!" The most peaceful people on this planet are those fortunate sinners who have come to recornize the evil in them and have come to Christ whereby He may change them into His own image (like mr. Smith in the matrix movies).

Terrence · 09-23-2006, 12:39 AM

You know what? I could say that Islam is not a religon of peace, but I'm not sure that would be right. I feel the problem isnt so much the religon as it is the people. Religions in and of itself isnt bad, but people by nature, are. G.K. Chesterton once said in a responce to Time magazine's question, "what is wrong with the world," said the following:

"Dir Sir,
In responce to your question 'what is wrong with the world.'
I am.
Yours Truely,
G.K. Chesterton"

Did you get that? Chesterton, as a Christian, had the understanding that the world does not have a hunger problem or pollution problem or money problem or war problem or disease problem, but instead a people problem. People are whats wrong with the world. I am the problem, you are, and on and on. The indwelling sin in us makes us the problem Read romands 3 and Jesus' words..."There is NONE Good, no not one!" The most peaceful people on this planet are those fortunate sinners who have come to recornize the evil in them and have come to Christ whereby He may change them into His own image (like mr. Smith in the matrix movies).

taijasi · 09-23-2006, 01:25 AM

Islam, from my limited understanding, recognizes that people have a sinful nature, but it also recognizes the GOOD ... just as many (perhaps most) Christians do. And this is what jihad is really all about. The struggle is, first and foremost, an INTERNAL battle, if I recall correctly. Only one type of jihad has to do with defending the faith in relation to other people.

So this business of preaching and bible-beating about the evils of human nature, will get us nowhere. It's horse hockey. People are GOOD. We are born Good, and our opportunity in life is to increase this Good. Not even having read the Koran, I'd bet my left arm that this is something taught in Islam.

But I wonder, does the Pope recognize this inner, human Goodness in all people? Or are his proverbial spectacles a bit too tight-fitting, such that ALL THE WORLD is Catholic - or SHOULD be? This is what's so nice about Interfaith, is that we can usually recognize that it takes all sorts ... to make the world go 'round. And Diversity, in terms of religion just as most other things, is GOOD!

I believe the post from `The Lord' is pretty much right-on! Certainly I would not hope for violence, and I think we are learning a great deal from this major screw-up of the big potato in the Vatican. It's a damn shame we can't just vote him outta there ... but then, here I am, in a supposed `democracy' - and my country, my freedom, my rights, my voice, my vote, and pretty much everything else have all been hijacked!

About all we can do, is pray for peace. And some sense & sanity. Hmmm .... can you impeach a pope?

Oh, and here's another little quote from Mr. Chesterton, perhaps my FAVORITE:

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.

taijasa