Is Islam actually peaceful?

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We are at war. Plain and simple. The enemy identify themselves as whatever, but a grenade knows no boundaries. They have ordered our deaths (collectively), regardless of who they are. When an enemy wishes your death, best take heed of that wish, and take cover, then go find the enemy and neutralise it, before it neutralises you.

Ok, but who exactly is the enemy? We know who some of them are, but there are many who we are not sure about.
Perhaps in America, certainly in Britain, many Muslims are feeling themselves to be more and more marginalised from society. The longer this process continues, and the more drastic it is, the more enemies we will have to go out and neutralise.
I think cyberpi's intention was that we should welcome different groups instead of keeping them outside our territory. Should we do this, the world will be a more peaceful place to live in.

It's like that Robert Frost poem, Mending Wall http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre...t-mending.html

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Ok, but who exactly is the enemy? We know who some of them are, but there are many who we are not sure about.
Perhaps in America, certainly in Britain, many Muslims are feeling themselves to be more and more marginalised from society. The longer this process continues, and the more drastic it is, the more enemies we will have to go out and neutralise.
I think cyberpi's intention was that we should welcome different groups instead of keeping them outside our territory. Should we do this, the world will be a more peaceful place to live in.

It's like that Robert Frost poem, Mending Wall http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre...t-mending.html

There are over 500,000 Muslim Arab/Americans in the United States Cav. That means they took an "oath" to be Americans, thus be trusted by their fellow Americans. It would be a serious mistake, for those same "Americans" to suddenly change their minds...

No country can afford that. This is a teetering balance here, but sooner or later, aliegences will have to be made. Case in point: My family is from Ireland (both sides), what am I? American. Religion has nothing to do with it. That is why my ancestors came here.

The Arab Americans (who are Muslim), will have to decide that for themselves. Not to mention the remaining "Muslims" that are not of Arab decent...

I was astounded by what I heard today about the mandate of Islam. The Qu'ran states all Jews and Christians are to be killed, converted, or subjugated? But, we were told, only 15 to 20 percent of Muslims were willing to go into other countries to carry out such a "mandate". Well, let's see, there are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, and 15 - 20 percent would put that at...200,000,000 people, willing to go out into this world and kill all Christians and Jews, subjugate or convert them...

Suddenly 15-20 percent, isn't so small a number...do you think?

Reality, suddenly hit home, like a pitcher beaning the batter...the game's rules are forfeit...

If the Pope gets "hit", as promised by the Arab/Muslim extremists (that no "old country" nation has the nuts to stop)...what do you think, will happen next?

I don't think this is an exercise in philosophy for much longer...do you?

[Quahom1]

Taij, I know what you are thinking. But I opine that the US has everything to lose, if we do not stick to our guns, so to speak. I see an ultimatum, coming down the pike...and no one will be able to deflect it...

For all the philisophical rhetoric, do you really see another way? Burning churches and killing nuns because of a "rage" that can't be controlled? Most would call that a "rabid" response...

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

There are over 500,000 Muslim Arab/Americans in the United States Cav. That means they took an "oath" to be Americans, thus be trusted by their fellow Americans. It would be a serious mistake, for those same "Americans" to suddenly change their minds...

No country can afford that. This is a teetering balance here, but sooner or later, aliegences will have to be made. Case in point: My family is from Ireland (both sides), what am I? American. Religion has nothing to do with it. That is why my ancestors came here.

The Arab Americans (who are Muslim), will have to decide that for themselves. Not to mention the remaining "Muslims" that are not of Arab decent...

I was astounded by what I heard today about the mandate of Islam. The Qu'ran states all Jews and Christians are to be killed, converted, or subjugated? But, we were told, only 15 to 20 percent of Muslims were willing to go into other countries to carry out such a "mandate". Well, let's see, there are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, and 15 - 20 percent would put that at...200,000,000 people, willing to go out into this world and kill all Christians and Jews, subjugate or convert them...

Suddenly 15-20 percent, isn't so small a number...do you think?

Reality, suddenly hit home, like a pitcher beaning the batter...the game's rules are forfeit...

If the Pope gets "hit", as promised by the Arab/Muslim extremists (that no "old country" nation has the nuts to stop)...what do you think, will happen next?

I don't think this is an exercise in philosophy for much longer...do you?

I have never thought this is an exercise in philosophy. This is all about practicality.

Islamic Fundamentalism is on the rise, why?

15-20% of all Muslims does not sound like a small number, now why don't you do the math and work out how many people 20-25% is. That's what we're moving towards. Western societies are marginalising Muslims, we're pissing off good people and playing right into the hands of the extremists. Support for extremism has never been so high, why is that Q?

You wrote that Muslim Arab Americans took an oath to be Americans and thus be trusted by their fellow Americans. The thing is that average Muslims in Britain and America are not trusted. Virtually all of these people have done absolutely nothing wrong and yet they are under suspicion.
What are we doing to win these these hearts and minds?

George Bush is losing his war on terror. 5 years after 911 there is more fear, distrust, hatred, and suspicion. The methods we are using do not work and fundamentalism is going from strength to strength.

You're a military man Q, so maybe you can answer me this question. When we hear military people talking about winning the hearts and minds of the regular civilians, is this just something to think about, or something to put into action?

[Postmaster]

Japanese used planes as suicide weapons during World War 2, was that religious?

[The Lord]

Originally Posted by cavalier

... When we hear military people talking about winning the hearts and minds of the regular civilians, is this just something to think about, or something to put into action?

We win them as war trophies. You probably could buy some framed ones on eBay.

Really, all Imperialist powers claimed the same "civilizing" and selfless mission. It just looks better in a history book than in daily politics. And of course, your feelings about it depend on where you fall relative this mission, whether you benefit or you lose. People are incapable of recognizing their own wrong doings.

[The Lord]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Japanese used planes as suicide weapons during World War 2, was that religious?

The Japanese were not Muslim, and thus there is no reason to bash them. We, the free and democratic peoples of the West, only hate Muslims because we are told to hate them because they hate us because we hate them.

[The Lord]

Originally Posted by aburaees

It's ironic that Europe "received" enlightenment from Islam, when it was Islam that arguably helped plunge Europe into the dark ages in the first place by weakening the Roman Empire and taking over its territories.

Rome's centres of excellence were "taken" by Islam e.g. Alexandria, so WE borrowed the enlightenment that they already had. ...

Islam did not plunge Europe into the dark ages. Europe became dark when the Roman Empire split into two parts, East and West. The Eastern Empire, which is not European but Asian and North African, lasted till the 15th century, which is 8 centuries after the rise of Islam, and it fell largely thanks to the Crusades either directly by attacking the empire for wealth or by raising the level of enmity between Byzantium and Islam. The Western Roman Empire, the one that inherited Europe, was destroyed by the “native” barbarian invasions in the 5th century, which is about 2 centuries before the rise of Islam.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by The Lord

The Japanese were not Muslim, and thus there is no reason to bash them. We, the free and democratic peoples of the West, only hate Muslims because we are told to hate them because they hate us because we hate them.

Ah, your methods and motive are beginning to show, you might want to check your slip.

Despite the uproar my comments seem to have raised, I do not hate Muslims, and I live in the West. Therefore, your theory falls on its face.

No, what I see is hypersensitive overreaction from people who do not have anything constructive to say, and / or have an agenda of hatred of their own they wish to promote at every available opportunity. Even if that opportunity must be invented or contrived, even if that opportunity is disguised as an overblown pity party. For G-d's sake!, murder for a stupid cartoon???

Actually, I think Postmaster hit on a very valid point, dispite the dismissal, in that kamikaze was indeed a religious act, carried out in war, by a religion that promotes itself as peaceful.

While that is aside from the OP of this thread, it is a *very* close parallel, that anybody with a rational and reasoning mind could clearly see.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Ah, your methods and motive are beginning to show, you might want to check your slip.

Despite the uproar my comments seem to have raised, I do not hate Muslims, and I live in the West. Therefore, your theory falls on its face.

No, what I see is hypersensitive overreaction from people who do not have anything constructive to say, and / or have an agenda of hatred of their own they wish to promote at every available opportunity. Even if that opportunity must be invented or contrived, even if that opportunity is disguised as an overblown pity party. For G-d's sake!, murder for a stupid cartoon???

Actually, I think Postmaster hit on a very valid point, dispite the dismissal, in that kamikaze was indeed a religious act, carried out in war, by a religion that promotes itself as peaceful.

While that is aside from the OP of this thread, it is a *very* close parallel, that anybody with a rational and reasoning mind could clearly see.

I believe the term is "bigotry" of the highest order, hidden under an odd sense of self righteousness, that doesn't exist. Instead of the Aryan nation, it is now the "Islamic Nation". However, what does exist is absolute unequivicable evidence of the actions of destruction over the past 40 years, in the name of Islam. True, it is done by a few, while the majority remain silent, out of fear, and the wish to not be involved... while the radicals blame it all on the Imperialist west...man, does that sound like a page taken right out of the history books, or what?

Strange, the "fasciasts" of Germany had the exact same type of fear control over the general populace in the 1930s and 40s. History repeats itself while the world tries to placate those incapable of being placated...because it does not agree with their ultimate agenda.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

George Bush is losing his war on terror. 5 years after 911 there is more fear, distrust, hatred, and suspicion. The methods we are using do not work and fundamentalism is going from strength to strength.

You're a military man Q, so maybe you can answer me this question. When we hear military people talking about winning the hearts and minds of the regular civilians, is this just something to think about, or something to put into action?

Is there? Or is what you see, the knuckling down to a long drawn out "war" just like the world has been told would happen, from day one, and the "fact" that the US isn't tucking tail and running? I know that really irritates some in the world. It always has...

As for winning the hearts and minds of the regular civilians, well that is a proven process, that can be seen in the rebuild and retooling and dignity restoring efforts that went on in post war Germany, Japan, Korea, France, Italy...the disdain you see today, is that of a generation, that was not born during that time, but the elders remember.

v/r

Q

Oh, an interesting side note. Mr. Bush's approval rating in the US has climbed 15 percent in the past few weeks, to 49 percent, and shows no sign of slowing in its assent...wonder why.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Is there? Or is what you see, the knuckling down to a long drawn out "war" just like the world has been told would happen, from day one, and the "fact" that the US isn't tucking tail and running? I know that really irritates some in the world. It always has...

A few things,
Firstly, I have got nothing against America. I am, and have written this before, a big fan of your great country.

You say America isn't tucking tail and running, ok but the truth is that you never really came out barking and gnashing your teeth. The numbers of troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq were inadequate and were never going to able to get the job done quickly, if at all.

In terms of fighting terror what has been done, terrorism has now taken hold of Iraq, the region has been destabalised, more and more moderate Muslims are questioning the the actions of the US, are losing patience with the US. Support for radicalism appears to be on the increase.
There is more fear in the world now than there was in the months following 911.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

As for winning the hearts and minds of the regular civilians, well that is a proven process, that can be seen in the rebuild and retooling and dignity restoring efforts that went on in post war Germany, Japan, Korea, France, Italy...the disdain you see today, is that of a generation, that was not born during that time, but the elders remember.

Exactly, it was a differnent time, this generation does not remember it, and neither can this generation see such efforts being made today.


You have sidestepped many of the questions I raised and simply played the age card. No doubt if I was an American you would have insinuated that I simply wasn't patriotic enough.


In another post you wrote

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Strange, the "fasciasts" of Germany had the exact same type of fear control over the general populace in the 1930s and 40s. History repeats itself while the world tries to placate those incapable of being placated...because it does not agree with their ultimate agenda.

Yes, of course there are those who are implacable, but they're not the people we should be talking about. Neither should we really be talking about placation.
You wrote earlier of the 500,000 Muslim Arab Americans, and the many other non Arab Muslim Americans and said that these people will have to decide for themselves, allegiances will have to be made. What you propose is an America whose civilians' equality will be decided on religious lines. Members of a certain religion having to stand up and pledge an extra oath of allegiance.
This is not about placation, it is about treating people as equal, it is about viewing someone as innocent until proven guilty. Aren't those two things guaranteed under your constitution?
Doing things your way will simply fan the fires of radicalism by marginalising ordinary citizens.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

A few things,
Firstly, I have got nothing against America. I am, and have written this before, a big fan of your great country.

You say America isn't tucking tail and running, ok but the truth is that you never really came out barking and gnashing your teeth. The numbers of troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq were inadequate and were never going to able to get the job done quickly, if at all.

In terms of fighting terror what has been done, terrorism has now taken hold of Iraq, the region has been destabalised, more and more moderate Muslims are questioning the the actions of the US, are losing patience with the US. Support for radicalism appears to be on the increase.
There is more fear in the world now than there was in the months following 911.




Exactly, it was a differnent time, this generation does not remember it, and neither can this generation see such efforts being made today.


You have sidestepped many of the questions I raised and simply played the age card. No doubt if I was an American you would have insinuated that I simply wasn't patriotic enough.


In another post you wrote

Yes, of course there are those who are implacable, but they're not the people we should be talking about. Neither should we really be talking about placation.
You wrote earlier of the 500,000 Muslim Arab Americans, and the many other non Arab Muslim Americans and said that these people will have to decide for themselves, allegiances will have to be made. What you propose is an America whose civilians' equality will be decided on religious lines. Members of a certain religion having to stand up and pledge an extra oath of allegiance.
This is not about placation, it is about treating people as equal, it is about viewing someone as innocent until proven guilty. Aren't those two things guaranteed under your constitution?
Doing things your way will simply fan the fires of radicalism by marginalising ordinary citizens.

I forgot you aren't American.

I agree, we didn't send in enough troops.

I did not believe I side stepped anything.

I grew up in an Arabic neighborhood for 20 years. I watched the attitudes change over the past 40 years, as new immigrants come into the states and settle, begin families and become "citizens". Well, some of them are not, and have no intention of ever doing so. The contempt of some is so thick and choking... They openly express delight in the day that Islam destroys the Americans they live among, so they can take over...

There is a difference between the original immigrants and the latest generation... day and night.

v/r

Q

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

lol, the only "dogs" I see in America are ones that pet owners cherish (for the most part). The rest are HUMAN BEINGS, that you apparently have "downgraded".

If you can't see the animal in your mind, then who is the one who is blind? I see the one in mine.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We are at war. Plain and simple. The enemy identify themselves as whatever, but a grenade knows no boundaries. They have ordered our deaths (collectively), regardless of who they are. When an enemy wishes your death, best take heed of that wish, and take cover, then go find the enemy and neutralise it, before it neutralises you.

That, my friend is the law of the jungle. And that is what this is becoming, in case you haven't been keeping up with the news.

You don't see it? Is jungle law just human nature?

As a former US Marine (Devil Dog, Jarhead, etc...) who served to help oust Saddam from Kuwait, and is not afraid of judging or condemning: Quahom1, I consider the attitude you present to BE THE ENEMY. I dislike seeing that in my country, or anywhere. You are being an aide to extremists both at home and abroad. Why? Generalizing 'we', 'enemy', 'them', 'our' is a feature of extremism or someone who does not understand democracy... you are trying to speak for people you don't even know. Why shouldn't an extremist point to ANY minority viewpoint in the USA and generalize to call the USA the enemy for it? Because that is what you just did. That is what OBL did. I watch plural pronouns carefully because they imply a relationship that is either real or imaginary. The 'WE' from a person describing Islam is imaginary, unless he is quoting the Qur'an, and it is identical to the way you used 'WE'. The 'THEM' from OBL is imaginary, and is identical to the way you describe 'THEM'. The Qur'an is clear that people stand as individuals before God (swt) for judgement, without even a single witness. So it is not 'WE', 'US', or 'THEM'... people are individuals before God (swt). It is the same in a democracy. I don't speak for you, your family, or your country, so why do you try to speak for mine? You have a vote, I have a vote. In fact I think the USA needs to become more democratic. Individuals want to have more voice... with the improved communication technology that is now possible. But I don't mean a blog, I mean nationwide votes on bills. A nation-wide vote for when to go to war. There is no 'WE' in my family until 'WE' take a vote... then there is a relationship. Then and only then can you comment about 'OUR' decision. Otherwise you are generalizing from your imagination... or worse the imagination of a media writer, and that is a dangerous thing.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

If you can't see the animal in your mind, then who is the one who is blind? I see the one in mine.


You don't see it? Is jungle law just human nature?

As a former US Marine (Devil Dog, Jarhead, etc...) who served to help oust Saddam from Kuwait, and is not afraid of judging or condemning: Quahom1, I consider the attitude you present to BE THE ENEMY. I dislike seeing that in my country. You are being an aide to extremists both at home and abroad. Why? Generalizing 'we', 'enemy', 'them', 'our' is a feature of extremism or someone who does not understand democracy... you are trying to speak for people you don't even know. Why shouldn't an extremist point to ANY minority viewpoint in the USA and generalize to call the USA the enemy for it? Because that is what you just did. That is what OBL did. I watch plural pronouns carefully because they imply a relationship that is either real or imaginary. The 'WE' from a person describing Islam is imaginary, unless he is quoting the Qur'an, and it is identical to the way you used 'WE'. The 'THEM' from OBL is imaginary, and is identical to the way you describe 'THEM'. The Qur'an is clear that people stand as individuals before God (swt) for judgement, without even a single witness. So it is not 'WE', 'US', or 'THEM'... people are individuals before God (swt). It is the same in a democracy. I don't speak for you, your family, or your country, so why do you try to speak for mine? You have vote, I have a vote. There is no 'WE' in my family until 'WE' take a vote... then there is a relationship. Then and only then can you comment about 'OUR' decision. Otherwise you are generalizing from your imagination... or worse the imagination of a media writer, and that is a dangerous thing.

That, is your opinion, and not one I will lose any sleep over...not while my own are over there, while you trash everything they believe in and serve for...

That is the wonder of a free society. You can cast stones, and I can duck and keep moving forward...

Thank you for your service, now stay the hell out of my way while I do mine...

I don't agree with your take on things, and I suspect I never will. Clear enough for you Marine?