Is it fair to insinuate about Islam?

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I'd be happy to email you the clips if you would like to see for yourself.

Hello, did you have the original links? It sometimes helps to know the original source.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Hello, did you have the original links? It sometimes helps to know the original source.

All my clips came from Kazaa, Ogrish and other file share sites rather than links. I built up my own small library of human rights related footage which I now keep on a slave drive from the computer I used to own. Although the names of these sites in some way lives on they are no longer like they were when they were free peer to peer sites. And being peer to peer the clips posted are usually amateur footage of events. One or two of them appear to be taken from television broadcasts, not the kind of footage you get on the BBC.

Tao

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

All my clips came from Kazaa, Ogrish and other file share sites rather than links. I built up my own small library of human rights related footage which I now keep on a slave drive from the computer I used to own. Although the names of these sites in some way lives on they are no longer like they were when they were free peer to peer sites. And being peer to peer the clips posted are usually amateur footage of events. One or two of them appear to be taken from television broadcasts, not the kind of footage you get on the BBC.

Greetings, Tao.

The main problem here is that it is hard to attest to journalistic integrity and authenticity when one cannot cite the orginal source.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Greetings, Tao.

The main problem here is that it is hard to attest to journalistic integrity and authenticity when one cannot cite the orginal source.

Just as it is hard to find journalistic integrity and authenticity when all your information comes from the very few major news empires.

Tao

[greymare]

oh yes, cos everything you read in the paper and watch on the news is absuolutely unbiased and true.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by greymare

oh yes, cos everything you read in the paper and watch on the news is absuolutely unbiased and true.

There is no need to trust any one source. If a story is published by a reputable news outlet, at least it can be crossvalidated.

I did a Google search on castration as a form of punishment in Saudi Arabia and turned up nothing. Ok, maybe my search was not exhaustive. But I would have expected to see at least some reference to it in anti-Muslim hate sites - of which there are literally hundreds on the Internet. Since many of these hate sites actually recycle each other's material, there should be multiple hits.

Ms. Sally did a search as well and also turned up nothing on this subject: "can't find anything about it on the net. There is NOTHING at all that I am aware of in our faith that would justify this, I have never even heard of it in the weirder sects." Here's the link for Ms. Sally's post: http://www.comparative-religion.com/...tml#post143084

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Just as it is hard to find journalistic integrity and authenticity when all your information comes from the very few major news empires.

I see it as a matter of degree. There are always questions about the generality of the findings. Investigative journalism reported by authors who have been working in a given area for some time, who have actually made site visits, or who are reporting empirical research (large scale surveys, structured interviews, data base analyses) are usually credible and worth listening to.

[Tao_Equus]

Well the footage I have of this amputation/mutilation appears to be a genuine piece of amateur video. The Clothes of the people in it are certainly of the middle east though I cannot myself confirm it is Saudi.

I ask permission of Mods to post a still of the actual moment of severing so that the participants can be clearly be shown to be carrying out this act and in regional dress.

tao

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Well the footage I have of this amputation/mutilation appears to be a genuine piece of amateur video. The Clothes of the people in it are certainly of the middle east though I cannot myself confirm it is Saudi.

I ask permission of Mods to post a still of the actual moment of severing so that the participants can be clearly be shown to be carrying out this act and in regional dress.

Greetings Tao,

The issue is whether the picture you have in mind has any relevance as evidence in relation to your claims about Saudi Arabia. By your own admission, its relevance is dubious in this regard.

Posting an image like the one you have in mind would add nothing to the analysis. In a court of law, it would be inadmissible on grounds of being both prejudicial and lacking relevance. Frankly, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by posting the image.

Btw, there are hundred of thousands - indeed millions - of Christians in the Middle East. There are also many Hindus. You're the first to suggest that regional dress is an indicator of religious affiliation.

Your claims about Saudi Arabian punitive practices - particularly castration - is unsubstantiated. Moreover, the connection to Islam has not been developed. Again, Ms. Sally said "There is NOTHING at all that I am aware of in our faith that would justify" castration.

Perhaps you have some information Ms. Sally does not know about. If you're aware of a Koranic justification for castration as a form of punishment, I'd be interested in checking it out at your earliest convenience.

Thanks for sticking with this, Tao.

[Tao_Equus]

There are many practices carried out in the name of Islam that according to Sally's interpretation of Islam are unjustified. Female genital mutilation for example happens many times every day across the predominately African Muslim world.

The fact remains that I do possess a clip of penis amputation that was flagged as being from Saudi Arabia. Not a castration. I kind of object to you trying to turn my observation of dress into some kind of reverse stereo-typing insinuation when it is perfectly valid of me to consider dress a valid indicator of regional setting. You dont have to go far in my posts to realise I have little respect for Islam but I am perfectly capable of separating the individual from his/her religion. Something, incidentally, that many Muslim schools say cannot be done.

Given the Saudi track record and the rhetoric coming from its leaders I do not find the clip dubious in the least. Something I have learned in life is what we get to read about is only ever the tip of the iceberg.

Tao

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

There are many practices carried out in the name of Islam that according to Sally's interpretation of Islam are unjustified. Female genital mutilation for example happens many times every day across the predominately African Muslim world.

Tao, please cite an instance when female genital mutilation carried out in the name of Islam.

The fact remains that I do possess a clip of penis amputation that was flagged as being from Saudi Arabia.

Whose flagging was it? Even if it turned out to be the case that it happened in Saudi Arabia-- of which you have no proof -- you would then be faced with the task of showing why anyone should believe that it has "Islamic" significance. As it stands, you are trying to give something meaning by means of an inferential process that involves little in the way of facts and highly questionable assumptions.

I kind of object to you trying to turn my observation of dress into some kind of reverse stereo-typing insinuation when it is perfectly valid of me to consider dress a valid indicator of regional setting.

Geography means very little. How would one presume to differentiate Christians or Hindus from Muslims when they wear the same garb? I don't understand why you would persist along these lines. Legitimate criticism of a religion are one thing. Suggesting that one can reasonably infer something about religious intention underlying an action on the basis of nothing more than visual impressions about dress or assumptions about regional setting is another.

The kinds of cues you are working from really mean very little. My own recent experience confirms just how little. Earlier this week happen to start up a conversation with a gentleman who I thought was from India because he had a beautiful poetic Urdu/Hindustani accent. It turned out he was from Pakistan. Pakistan is 97% Muslim. After he told me his nationality, I immediately jumped to the conclusion that he must be Muslim. Guess what. He told me he was raised a Hindu.

One of my respected religious studies professors was a Hindu. So I looked forward to talking with this gentleman about a Hindu-related topic. Guess what. He had converted to Christianity many years ago and wanted to know if I had accepted Jesus into my heart.

As you can see, assumptions don't count for much in the real world. I was wrong about this man's nationality. I was wrong about him being a Muslim. And I was wrong about him being a Hindu. That is, I was wrong about one person on three counts in a matter of 5 minutes time! Attempts to pigeonhole people rarely pay off.

You don't have to go far in my posts to realize I have little respect for Islam

But I wonder to what extent your sentiments are grounded in fact.

I am perfectly capable of separating the individual from his/her religion. Something, incidentally, that many Muslim schools say cannot be done.

Which Muslim schools are these, please?

Given the Saudi track record and the rhetoric coming from its leaders I do not find the clip dubious in the least. Something I have learned in life is what we get to read about is only ever the tip of the iceberg.

Tao, we differ in our world views and that's fine. My own impression is that much of what we read about Islam is nothing more than malicious lies. I'm no expert on Islamic doctrine, but when I can refute the underlying (and often unstated) premises of some of the bizarre assertions I see on anti-Muslim hate sites with a 1-minute search of the Koran, I can only conclude that much of the information we have access to about Islam is nonsense.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Tao, please cite an instance when female genital mutilation carried out in the name of Islam.

I refer you to another thread: http://www.comparative-religion.com/...sion-7481.html

Whose flagging was it? Even if it turned out to be the case that it happened in Saudi Arabia-- of which you have no proof -- you would then be faced with the task of showing why anyone should believe that it has "Islamic" significance. As it stands, you are trying to give something meaning by means of an inferential process that involves little in the way of facts and highly questionable assumptions.

It may be that the footage originated elsewhere, say Iran for example, but it is highly unlikely that wherever it came from that it was performed by anything other than Muslims. Where, in that region does any other religious group perform public mutilations/executions? This still does not infer that it had sanction under Islamic justice, at least not officially. And there is the real issue about what takes place... not official line but actual practice. They are rarely the same. I dont know why you seem so set on being an apologist for what Islam allows in its name, officially or otherwise, but it seems to me you would like me to turn round and say "oooo Islam is all sweetness and light", which not by any stretch of the imagination is fact. I am not prejudiced tho, Christianity of the US Republican variety is even worse, Catholicism has a rich tradition of murder and suffering, and the Jewish state has become the doppelgänger of its greatest historical enemy. As ever religion is doing the world a world of good!! Yeh right and my granny was from Pluto.

Which Muslim schools are these, please?

You do not have to look far to find that out for yourself. As a non believer in any Abrahamic religion I am a Dimmi. There are many Imams out there who consider me of lesser worth than a sewer rat.

Tao, we differ in our world views and that's fine. My own impression is that much of what we read about Islam is nothing more than malicious lies. I'm no expert on Islamic doctrine, but when I can refute the underlying (and often unstated) premises of some of the bizarre assertions I see on anti-Muslim hate sites with a 1-minute search of the Koran, I can only conclude that much of the information we have access to about Islam is nonsense.

I dont look at such sites. I dont have to.

Tao

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I refer you to another thread: http://www.comparative-religion.com/...sion-7481.html

Is a thread that's 5 pages long. What part of that relates to the issue at hand? Btw, there is nothing in the Koran about female circumcision. It is a pre-Islamic practice.

Check this out:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/...tml#post113029

It may be that the footage originated elsewhere, say Iran for example, but it is highly unlikely that wherever it came from that it was performed by anything other than Muslims.

Well, that's your assessment.

Where, in that region does any other religious group perform public mutilations/executions?

You havent established what region it is. Your have some assumptions. We don't know whether religious groups are involved in any way. When Blacks were lynched in the US, do we know Christian groups were behind it just because America was a predominantly Christian nation?

This still does not infer that it had sanction under Islamic justice, at least not officially. And there is the real issue about what takes place... not official line but actual practice.

If you want to argue that certain practices should be viewed as "Islamic," you could start by providing Koranic justification. Kindly cite chapter and verse.

I dont know why you seem so set on being an apologist for what Islam allows in its name, officially or otherwise.

Why do you insist on calling me an apologist when I'm only asking you to defend your position?

it seems to me you would like me to turn round and say "oooo Islam is all sweetness and light"

Realistically, there is no hope of that. I'm merely calling attention to the need for legitimate criticism. I don't see why you want to characterize me as unreasonable for doing that. For you to do so has the potential to make you seem unreasonable.

Yeh right and my granny was from Pluto.

I wouldn't know.

As a non believer in any Abrahamic religion I am a Dimmi. There are many Imams out there who consider me of lesser worth than a sewer rat.

Their opinion may not count for much, so don't worry about it.

Btw, historically being a Dhimmi was a desirable status because it meant you were protected. I don't believe you would have qualified as a Dhimmi because that was a status bestowed prinicipally upon People of the Book, that is, Christians and Jews. It was also extended to other religious groups .... probably for its money-making potential.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Is a thread that's 5 pages long. What part of that relates to the issue at hand? Btw, there is nothing in the Koran about female circumcision. It is a pre-Islamic practice.

I know that, you know that, but in the places it is practised it is, rightly or wrongly, given Islamic justification. I do not have much time at the moment and so cannot go trawling up the same old stuff again, so if you want to understand the justifications they use you'll have to go look for yourself.

Well, that's your assessment.

It is. And exactly how widely travelled are you in the Islamic world?

You havent established what region it is.

To you I may not have. But for me there is little scope for error.

If you want to argue that certain practices should be viewed as "Islamic," you could start by providing Koranic justification. Kindly cite chapter and verse.

The Q'uran, like most 'holy books' has and can be used by those so motivated to justify just about anything. How You interpret it means absolutely nothing. How I interpret it means nothing. So where does your point actually have any relevance?

Why do you insist on calling me an apologist when I'm only asking you to defend your position?

Because that seems to be your position?

Btw, historically being a Dhimmi was a desirable status because it meant you were protected. I don't believe you would have qualified as a Dhimmi because that was a status bestowed prinicipally upon People of the Book, that is, Christians and Jews. It was also extended to other religious groups .... probably for its money-making potential.

My mistake... I am a Kaffir-Harbi : A non-Muslim who does not live under Muslim rule. Which according to these two sources pulled from Wiki state:

"It has been determined by Islamic law that the blood and property of people of Dar Al-Harb [the Domain of Disbelief where the battle for the domination of Islam should be waged] is not protected"

"...it is permitted to kill him, because he is a Harbi and the Harbi spreads corruption throughout the face of the earth."

Nice tolerant religion aint it.....

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

(I)n the places it is practised it is, rightly or wrongly, given Islamic justification.

So you say. I asked you before to provide an example of Islamic justification for the practice in question. You then linked to a previous thread on this forum. Now you tell me you're not sure there's any material in there that supports your view. That's not fair.

I do not have much time at the moment and so cannot go trawling up the same old stuff again

Oh, you have that problem, too? Again, I don't think it is fair for me to be put in a position to look for evidence that may or may not help you support your various contentions. I feel that's your responsibility. In the meantime, I'll just consider your position unsubstantiated.

if you want to understand the justifications they use you'll have to go look for yourself.

I don't know who 'They' are and apparently you don't either.

And exactly how widely travelled are you in the Islamic world?

You're changing the subject. The issue is whether there is is any rationale that you point to that links the practice in queston to Islamic doctrine. That has nothing to do with where I've been.

Just curious, how many Female circumcisions did you witness in the course of your travels of the Islamic world?

But for me there is little scope for error.

There are opinions and then there are facts. They're not interchangeable.

The Q'uran, like most 'holy books' has and can be used by those so motivated to justify just about anything.

Possibly. But so far you have not provided any justification of genital mutilation that relates to Islamic doctrine. Obviously we're going around in circles. I had assumed you could dance, so this exchange isn't adding much.

Btw, there are over 50 Islamic countries. Which of these societies engage in pre-Islamic practices and offer what you call "Islamic justification." Any of them?

How You interpret it means absolutely nothing.

I have not offered an ":interpretation:" of any kind, so I'm puzzled by your dismissiveness. I've merely noted that there is no reference to mutilating women in the Koran. In effect, you have argued that the absence of any relevant text lends itself to justifying a practice that antedated Islam by many years. Makes no sense. The absence of evidence does not provide a basis for conclusions. No workie.

Because that seems to be your position?

One more time: I've merely pointed out that you haven't posted the evidence you need to support your position. I think that's a fair appraisal of the situation, albeit one you are unwilling to accept. I don't understand why you are so committed to a position you can't defend. Has anyone ever called you stubborn?

...according to these two sources pulled from Wiki

Why do you presume to make an asessment about a religion or its practitioners from what two people say?

Finally, what do these sources you cite have to say about female genital mutilation? Do they say it's a sin if a parent doesn't do this to their child? Btw, one of your sources is the Mufti of Egypt, a country where the procedure is illegal.

Again, justification for genital mutilation is nowhere to be found in the Koran. That's good enough for me. There is no reason to blame ignorant and crazy behavior on the religion.