Is It Wrong to Drink Alcoholic Beverages?

[greymare]

well brucey, when they start producing a soft drink that tastes like whiskey. then Ill buy it.

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by mee

it can be very damaging if not used as the bible tells us too, and most people dont give the bible any thought and do things there own way .


thats when the problems start in many things . doing things our own way will only end in tears .


All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
2 timothy 3;16-17

Proverbs 31:4-5
It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; Nor for princes to say , Where is strong drink?Lest they drink, and forget the law, And pervert the justice due to any that is afflicted.

23:20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:


23:21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

Proverbs 23:31-32
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken.

Hosea 4:11
Prostitution, wine, and new wine take away understanding.

[Bruce Michael]

Dear Friends,
Let's take another look at our total abstainer St. Paul.
Did he not institute the Holy Communion?

Review of Paul and Hellenism by Hyam Maccoby, SCM 1991




Quote:
"We learn that Tarsus, which Acts identifies as Paul's birthplace, was the center of Mithras worship, whose initiates "either drank the blood of the sacred bull or drank a chalice of wine as a symbolic representation of that blood" (p.25). Later, Wilson does not hesitate to see Paul's understanding of the sacrificial nature of Christ's death as being "in the same light that the followers of Mithras saw the death of the sacrificial bull" (p.166); or to link Paul's very un-Jewish concept of the sacramental Lord's Supper (1 Corinthians 11:23f) with Greek cultic precedents; its very name, kuriakon deipnon, was "borrowed from the Mithraic mysteries" (p.165).

He observes that "there is not the slightest suggestion by Paul that this tradition derives from anyone who was actually with Jesus on the night before he died." That Jesus, a pious Jew, could have asked his disciples "to drink a cup of blood, even symbolically, is unthinkable" (p.25), since the drinking of blood was one of the most fundamental taboos in Jewish life. Rather, Wilson concludes that "Paul believed he had received instruction from Jesus himself about the institution of this great Christian sacrament."

The Roman version of the Mithraic Mysteries appeared in Rome in the latter part of 100AD. That is when it takes a foothold in the west. Probably it was in existence in Tarsus, Turkey, well before that.

It is not surprising then that early Christians didn't use alcoholic wine in their Communions.
The Encratites, who opposed the use of all intoxicating drinks, consistently communed with water. In the fourth century the users-of water in the Communion were called "Aquarii" or "Hydroparastatae" and, under the Code of Theodosius, were liable to death for their practise.

Others known as having substituted water for wine are: Tatian, a
pupil of Justin Martyr; Galatia, the confessor of Alcibiades of Lyons; Pionius, the Catholic martyr of Smyrna; the Marcionites; the Ebionites; the Montanists; and the Therapeutae of Philo.
Yes a Catholic Saint as well!

-Br.Bruce

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Proverbs 31:4-5
It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; Nor for princes to say , Where is strong drink?Lest they drink, and forget the law, And pervert the justice due to any that is afflicted.

23:20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:

Are you a vegetarian because of this verse? Or just downcast when you eat meat?

Proverbs 23:21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

Proverbs 23:31-32
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken.
Hosea 4:11
Prostitution, wine, and new wine take away understanding.

God values your intellect very highly; don’t sell yourself for anything. Moderation is key.

If you are an alcoholic there is a lot of help to be had. Seek it. It is very wrong to say something is in the bible because of personal feelings.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

There was no alcoholic wine at the Last Supper, Bob. Wine is hametz- Numbers 6:3 declares it so.
The term translated "Wine" in the Bible can refer to boiled down cordial, raisin cakes, or fresh juice.
You may wish to have another look but I don't think the word "wine" is even used in any of the Gospels in reference to the Last Supper.

Cheers *clink*,
Br.Bruce

Hametz is port Bruce...21% by volume or greater.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Dear Q Joe,

Christ did not turn water into alcoholic wine at the Marriage at Cana- it was much better than that!

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ysos-7270.html

Paul tells us that he was setting an example.

The human digestive system itself creates alcohol- no need to get it from outside!

Happy Trails,
Br.Bruce

Abstain because it is right to abstain - not that yourself shall be kept clean.

I'm sorry, no where in the bible or any Apocrypha does it state that Christ turned water into anything but wine. And a lot of good the human digestive system does with alcohol once it passes the stomach lining Bruce.

The actual term is called Endogenous Ethanol Production.
It is made in the intestines. Yeasts produce tiny amounts of it, and the body absorbs this normally modest volume of EE and it goes straight to the liver, where it’s metabolized. Barring unusual circumstances, very little EE makes it to the rest of the body.

[chakraman]

hiya,
i suppose how you feel on this subject is down to your upbringing, cultural influences, the religion you have been exposed to, personal desire and perhaps even health. i would guess then that you could easily justify or condemn drinking with various quotes and clever argument.

if i'm useless at socialising and alcohol facilitates this i maybe inclined to do it, but that won't solve the problem of why i can't relax in company it will worsen it. for me personally the answer is in the right question - why do i require stimulation from an outside source? is it that physically or psychologically i am dull and being this way i seek to have some fire or joie de vie and so look to external sources to give me this. i feel it is of utmost importance to stoke your own inner fire or flame and not take it from an artificial form, which must surely extinguish it. sorry i hope folk who like a tipple don't think i'm calling them dull as i understand there are many reasons why people drink, just that ultimately i don't feel it does more than a cover up, ever...

p.s. i had a bottle of organic honey beer on xmas day! first in 5 years. nice but probably not again.

byeeeeee j.........

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hametz is port Bruce...21% by volume or greater.

They didn't have any port back then, Old Friend. There was no distilling and the wine was of about half the proof today.

Anything with yeast in it is hametz. I have read posts recently where Jews ask if is alright to sell their bottles of wine before passover.

Of course today you find Jews drinking kosher wine during passover- after first getting rid of any other yeast product out of the house.

But in the time of Jesus the law was more strictly adhered to than today. Wine is a yeast product- no doubt about it!

Cheerio,
Br.Bruce

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by pattimax

23:20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:

Are you a vegetarian because of this verse? Or just downcast when you eat meat?

I don't eat my meat in a riotous manner Patti. I have been a vegetarian in the past and I will give up meat for Lent.

One day humanity will look back on meat eating as it does cannibalism today. If you want to see something truly disgusting there is a video from a kosher abattoir in the USA doing the rounds of the internet. I have also seen footage from a halal butchery which is truly barbarous.

Originally Posted by pattimax

It is very wrong to say something is in the bible because of personal feelings.

The Christian approach these days should be to present all the facts from scientific (material and spiritual) sources and then let people make up their minds in freedom.

Kind Regards,
Br.Bruce

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm sorry, no where in the bible or any Apocrypha does it state that Christ turned water into anything but wine. And a lot of good the human digestive system does with alcohol once it passes the stomach lining Bruce.

The actual term is called Endogenous Ethanol Production.
It is made in the intestines. Yeasts produce tiny amounts of it, and the body absorbs this normally modest volume of EE and it goes straight to the liver, where it’s metabolized. Barring unusual circumstances, very little EE makes it to the rest of the body.

I have already explained the miracle at Cana in the link I posted. Of course the text says "wine".

Yeah the alcohol produced is not in the stomach but intestines- it stops your dinner going off.

The extra alcohol you drink enlarges your liver, and of course damages it over time.

Your Brother,
Bruce

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

The Christian approach these days should be to present all the facts from scientific (material and spiritual) sources and then let people make up their minds in freedom.

Kind Regards,
Br.Bruce

Ok. That's fair.

I'm just curious, have you taken nazirite vows?

[Xavier Breath]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

The Christian approach these days should be to present all the facts from scientific (material and spiritual) sources and then let people make up their minds in freedom.

Kind Regards,
Br.Bruce

Bruce, I thought the Christian approach these days, as all days, should be to present the fact that Christ lived, died for our sins, rose again and lives today. To add to this that we should become emissaries of scientific facts, some of which are indeed hypotheses disguised as facts, corrupts our role. Let the scientists present their information; Then let the people decide whether they want to accept Christ's gift (which is already bought and paid for and theirs for the taking) or not.

Those who are adamant about condemning the use of alcohol or whatever need to look carefully at their own habits, and be sure that they themselves do not own any indulgences which might fall into the same category. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone...

[pattimax]

I thought he meant Christians approaching other Christians.

[Xavier Breath]

OK, I guess I did not get that.

This forum sometimes makes me sad.

I don't like to see Christians fighting amongst themselves over who holds the "moral high ground". Many a soul has been lost to the idea that "God is on my side". God is not on my side, or on yours, or on anyone else's. God is on GOD's side. Our challenge as Christians is to get on God's side. I doubt He would approve of us trying to muscle each other out of the way to advance our own position.

[pattimax]

Ooohh. I am very sorry you see it that way. I see it as good, healthy debate. Looking at topics through others eyes ccan show how and why certain decisions are reached.