Is Prophecy dead?

[I, Brian]

There's a general perception in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, that prophecy is effectively dead - that all that required saying is said.

However, is this an interpretation supported directly by scripture - or is this a general assertion from events and human developments?

Does humanity no longer have a direct connection to God, excepting through the pages of books?

A general discussion question.

[brucegdc]

Nice generalization, but...

Christianity: There are still prophets - ask Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts and many more - remember the one who said he received a prophecy that unless the faithful kicked in a couple of million dollars, he'd be called to heaven? On a more mainline note, I believe that prophecy is accepted by the Catholic church - IIRC, there are prophecies by many of the saints (including some modern ones).

Judaism - again, depends on the branch. I believe the Hassidic Rebbe is accepted as a prophet by that group. I don't know of any recent prophets in the Conservative branch (but that's a recent US invention anyways). Since Judaism is primarily a personal relationship with God coupled with a familial/cultural relationship with other Jews (with more or less emphasis on each part depending on the branch), prophets aren't needed. Legal arguments, sure. Prophecy - we haven't finished sorting out all the oral law yet anyways, why give us more tsurris?

Islam, though, I think, regards prophecy as dead, as the Q'uran is the perfected scriptures, and Mohammed the final prophet.

[mikie8]

jews are still waiting for the messiah who will be a prophet and isreal will be given back to them by god ,both of which have not happened yet according to many jews

jesus was the messiah and the last prophet but only if you ask a christian


mohammad was the messiah and the last prophet but only if you ask muslims

[bananabrain]

for a concise explanation that saves me writing out something that someone has already said:

http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm

gives the basics on prophets. the basic difference about prophecy is that it is a direct form of communication with the Divine. a "bat qol" (heavenly voice) is more indirect, as is a "maggid" (heavenly guide of the great mediaeval kabbalists) - but both are inferior to prophecy. Prophecy was lost as the concomitant to the loss of the yetzer ha-ra for idolatry. a more detailed discussion is here.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ...ection-11.html

However, is this an interpretation supported directly by scripture - or is this a general assertion from events and human developments?

the argument is in various places in the Talmud.

with regard to 'prophecy' in other religions, opinion ranges from "all people had prophets sent to them", agreeing with the islamic PoV, to "modern/post-exilic prophets aren't proper prophets/are frauds" - which is certainly an argument i'd consider valid if faced with oral roberts or pat robertson!

incidentally, when you say "hassidic rebbe", i presume you mean the late lubavitcher rebbe, z"l. there are many different hassidic sects. and although there are some who consider him to have been the messiah, it is not the majority position of the lubavitch, or anyone else. and the messiah is not the same as a prophet. nobody ever said he was a prophet.

I don't know of any recent prophets in the Conservative branch (but that's a recent US invention anyways).

this is not correct either. conservative judaism in the US (and outside it) has been around for some time and, in any case, holds with orthodoxy that prophecy is no longer available.

Islam, though, I think, regards prophecy as dead, as the Q'uran is the perfected scriptures, and Mohammed the final prophet.

this is my understanding as well, although their position is that every nation was sent prophets. however, the arabic word "rasul" means a "messenger", which isn't the same as a "nabi", which is the arabic equivalent of the hebrew "navi".

jews are still waiting for the messiah who will be a prophet and israel will be given back to them by god ,both of which have not happened yet according to many jews

the messiah will not be a prophet. and the land of israel was never 'taken away from us' by G!D; it remained our national home, even if we weren't allowed to live there by the romans and their successors. and *no* jewish group (apart from the minority of lubavitcher hassidim mentioned above) believe the messiah has come. it's true that there are some sects (notably the satmar hassidim) who do not believe that jews should return to israel until the big M shows up.

mohammad was the messiah and the last prophet but only if you ask muslims

this is not the case. muhammad was never described as "masih"; this title was reserved for jesus, who is also a prophet (although i don't believe christians think jesus had to be a prophet because he was the Divine incarnate) however, the term 'masih' in the Qur'an does not serve the same purpose as it does in judaism and christianity, referring merely, i think, to his "anointed" status in that some people believed him to be the messiah.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[WHKeith]

Prophecy is very much alive within certain branches of Christianity.

I used to be a Charismatic Christian, a group that is not confined to any single religion but which includes members from all established Christian churches and even some Messianic Jews (Jews for Jesus; they consider themselves Jewish by faith, practice, and tradition, but believe that Jesus was Messiah, "Yeshua ha-Masshiach"). Charismatics point to I Corinthians 12: 4 - 11, which includes prophecy as one of the "Gifts of the Spirit" which believers receive upon being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

To put things in a broader and historical context, a number of mainstream evengelical churches embrace a doctrine known as "Dispensationalism." This claims that God has dealt with humanity in different ways at different times throughout history--a "Dispensation of the Law," for instance, and a "Dispensation of Grace." They point out that the "charisms," the Gifts of the Spirit, which included miracles, healing, tongues, gifts of wisdom and knowledge, and prophecy were all special dispensations at the Day of Pentecost, supplied to the apostles so that they could go out and convert the heathen. Today, of course, the dispensationalist argument goes, we have the established church and we have missionary outreaches and we have the Word of God and we no longer need miracles or prophecy. So they're dead. A probable majority of Christian churches accepts this doctrine at least tacitly, even if they don't call it Dispensationalism.

Numerous of the more mystical branches of Christianity, however, feel we need miracles and so forth today more than ever. Since the 1960's, the "Charismatic Renewal" has created branches within all mainstream denominations that accepts prophecy and the other gifts as modern-day fact.

My Christian experience was an odd one. Beginning as a nominal Presbyterian, I became a born-again Christian at a Catholic Charismatic prayer group meeting. For about a year afterward I was active with the Catholic Charismatics even though I never converted. (As an aside, I met my wife at that same prayer meeting.) Later, we joined a Baptist church--but a very strange one. Baptists for the most part are die-hard dispensationalists, but this particular church had gone through the Charismatic Renewal and was quite happy with prophecy and the other gifts. Later still, after another move, we hung out with Charismatic Lutherans.

I should add that only very, very, VERY rarely does "prophecy" have anything to do with foretelling the future. Propehecy is more properly seen as "forth-telling" rather than "fore-telling." Take a look at the OT prophets to see what I mean. Usually, they're busy telling kings and people and fig trees that they are wicked, lost in abomination, and if they don't shape up God is going to do some serious smiting. Charismatic prophecy follows the same general notion, though the emphasis usually is on love and forgiveness, not on smiting.

Some non-Charismatic believers accept a somewhat watered-down version. For example--Pat Robertson is Charismatic and uses prophesying in his ministry; Billy Graham, on the other hand, is not Charismatic, but certainly accepts that God can bestow a "spirit of prophecy" on someone at times. And he himself is certainly a prophet in the Biblical sense--telling people they have to turn away from their sins or God's gonna get out His smiting stick.

And a final cynical observation: for many centuries, and up until very recently, Catholics were discouraged from reading the Bible. The Church felt that it was too easy for ordinary people to read the scriptures and go off on some hair-brained and heretical tangent because they didn't understand what they were reading. Interpretation of the scriptures were best left in the hands of priests.

Most mainline churches, I feel, have a similar reaction against Charismatics and prophecy. They like the fact that the movement gets people excited about God, but they're faced with ordinary people standing up and speaking what they claim are God's own words. How do you maintain control of something like that? How many schisms and cults and new religions have appeared throughout history because John Peasant suddenly decided God was speaking to HIM, personally?

In fact, the modern Pentecostal churches--the Assemblies of God, the Church of God, and others--got started in 1900 when an outpouring of the Holy Spirit set a number of regular church-goers to speaking in tongues and prophesying; rather than starting a Charismatic Renewal with their church, though, they were less than amiably received, and ended up starting their own religion. All of these churches continue to encourage prophesying among their congregants, so long as those prophecies check with scripture and with another Gift called "Discernment of Spirits." The minister or other elders in the church can always tell someone giving a prophecy that he's out of line if they don't like the message.

So prophesying and the other gifts are often viewed with great trepidation by mainstream church leaders, and are handled with some caution even by established Pentecostal churches.

[Thresher]

It is written in Matt 11:13 That all the prophets and the law prophesied until John (The Baptist). What is meant by that is there can be nothing new. The apostles and John the revelator prophesied. But Revelation is nothing new, just a key to understanding the prophets of old. It says there will be many false prophets. Just as when Elijah was the only one for Yahweh against four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal (Look the meaning of that name up then read Jer:23:27) We are told we should test the spirits, the way you do is shown in Isayah 8:20 If they speak not according to the Law and the Testimony (Prophecy) there is no light in them. It says in Matt 12:39 that a wicked and adulterous generation looks for miraculous signs, and unfortunately II Cor 4:4 and Rev 12:9 are true, and we are very much as in the days of Noah. As it says in Isayah 33:6 That wisdom and knowledge will be the stability of your times and IITim 2:15 that we are to Study to show ourselves approved. Which very few people take the time to do.

[Dave the Web]

I would hope that prophecy is not dead. To believe so would be to argue that God no longer wishes to communciate with humanity. An argument for those who argue for literalism first perhaps? I cannot see God abandoning all communication with ourselves on the grounds that a Book can explain and comfort every challenge we face in our personal lives and relationships.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

There's a general perception in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, that prophecy is effectively dead - that all that required saying is said.

However, is this an interpretation supported directly by scripture - or is this a general assertion from events and human developments?

Does humanity no longer have a direct connection to God, excepting through the pages of books?

A general discussion question.

My response:

I don't know that there is a "general perception" that prophecy is "effectively dead".

To me most religions have a perspective of the future and many share an apocalyptic view of the future... but this will vary as to how literal people take the verses of scripture or if they view them as being allegorical in nature.

I came across what to me was a very interesting "prophecy" in what is called the "Peak of Eloquence" or Nahjul Balagha which are the sayings of the Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib who was the cousin of Prophet Muhammad and His son-in-law.

Here is the prophecy:

"A time will come when nothing will remain of the Qur'an except its writing, and nothing of Islam except its name.

The mosques in those days will be busy with regards to construction but desolate with regard to guidance.

Those staying in them and those visiting them will be the worst of all the earth.

From them mischief will spring up and toards them all wrong will turn.

If anyone isolates himself from it (mischief) they will fling him back to it and if anyone steps back from it they will push him towards it.

Says Allah, the Glorified, 'I swear by Myself that I shall send upon them an evil wherein the endurer would be bewildered and He would do so.'

We seek Allah's pardon from stumbling through neglect."

- p. 656 "Peak of Eloquence" Published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc. Sixth US edition 1996

To me these words composed by Imam Ali composed over a thousand years ago could be applicable to the situation today.

So here is a case in my view where many people would read these verses above and say yes this speaks to the situation we see today!

Also an interesting remark made:

"Does humanity no longer have a direct connection to God, excepting through the pages of books?"

When people read Scripture they can read it with humble devotion and openess and new insights will flood into the mind and the words themselves can take on new meanings throughout ones life as it unfolds... So reading revealed scripture to me can be a living experience as it records the sacred and conveys meanings to the heart and the heart is timeless and without barriers:

"...these planes, the nightingale of the heart hath other songs and secrets, which make the heart to stir and the soul to clamor, but this mystery of inner meaning may be whispered only from heart to heart, confided only from breast to breast.

"Only heart to heart can speak the bliss of mystic knowers;
No messenger can tell it and no missive bear it.
I am silent from weakness on many a matter,
For my words could not reckon them and my speech would fall short. [Arabian poem]"

- Baha'u'llah "The Seven Valleys"

[brettz9]

Bahá'u'lláh, the Prophet-Founder of the Bahá'í Faith--a Faith which grew out of Islám like Christianity did out of Judaism, maintains that God's one Faith has always showered the bounteous rain of prophecy upon mankind and will always do so till the "end that hath no end".

He argues most forcefully (and with Scriptural evidence) in His primary doctrinal work, the Kitáb-i-íqán, that it is impossible for God's hand to be "chained up" in the manner of prophecy (or in any manner).

See Kitab-i-Iqan, par. 148 for a specific example.

Much of this work addresses the interpretations which have restricted our perceptions as to the Unconstrained nature of God and have deprived humanity of the all-unifying nature of His successive Revelations.

See Kitab-i-Iqan, par. 172 (among other passages) for an explanation on the term "Seal of the Prophets" applied to Muhammad, peace be upon Him, which some in Islám have used to contend that prophecy will cease. Similar passages exist in addressing Christian and Jewish contentions, if anyone is interested.

[arthra]

Welcome to the forum Brett!

I enjoyed your selections.

Baha'is do have a view or perspective on the future that I think is "prophecy" based....

When Abdul-Baha, the eldest son of Baha'u'llah, journeyed to the United States in 1912 in November of that year in Cincinnati he is said to have foretold in the following words that America would be the instigator of the League of Nations:

"America is a noble nation, a standard bearer of peace throughout the world, shedding her light to all regions. Other nations are not untrammelled [sic] and free of intrigues like the United States , and are unable to bring about Universal Peace. But America, thank God, is at peace with all the world, and is worthy of raising the flag of brotherhood and International Peace. when the summons to International Peace is raised by America, all the rest of the world will cry: `Yes, we accept.' The nations of every clime will join in adopting the teachings of Bahaullah, revealed over fifty years ago. In His Epistles He asked the Parliaments of the world to send their best and wisest men to an international world-parliament that should decide all questions between the peoples and establish peace. then we shall have the Parliament of Man of which the prophets have dreamed."
And of course Baha'u'llah called for a parliament of nations many years (1870's) before to establish collective security and build a world government.

Source:

http://bahai-library.org/documents/imbrie.3.html

[Jericho]

Actually the Baha'i Faith has a great deal of prophecy revealed since the mid 1800s, if fact there have been many of world import that have already been fulfilled (16 concerning world events, and 10 concerning Scientific discoveries are depicted at http://BahaiText.Info - click on "EndTime").

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Zdrastvuitsye, hola, shalom, salaam, Dia dhuit, namastar ji, hej, konnichiwa, squeak, meow, :wave: to both brettz9 and Jerico.

I, personally, highly doubt that we have true prophesy nowadays, but I won't tell somebody else that what they believe is true prophesy is (to quote a couple of brothers here in the US) boooooooooooguuuuuuuus.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Zdrastvuitsye, hola, shalom, salaam, Dia dhuit, namastar ji, hej, konnichiwa, squeak, meow, :wave: to both brettz9 and Jerico.

I, personally, highly doubt that we have true prophesy nowadays, but I won't tell somebody else that what they believe is true prophesy is (to quote a couple of brothers here in the US) boooooooooooguuuuuuuus.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Ihave had a persoanl interest in the following area the past few years or so....

One of the several prophecies that is attributed to Baha'u'llah is a statement He made in the Nineteenth century:

"Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute."

- Baha'u'llah, "Gleanings"

Scientific literature of the period was pretty unanimous that our planetary system was fairly unique as they predicated this on the view that a passing star was repsonsible for generating our planets in this Solar system.

Today however, scientists have catalogued well over a hunded solar systems since the 1970's and the number of planets keeps growing

See:

http://www.obspm.fr/encycl/catalog.html

The part of the remark "...and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute" is also interesting and relates to life on other worlds.... this is one aspect that is currently not in scientific providence except recently there was evidence discovered of water on Mars and when there's water there's usually a life form....

- Art

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

. . . .

Christianity: There are still prophets - ask Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts and many more - remember the one who said he received a prophecy that unless the faithful kicked in a couple of million dollars, he'd be called to heaven.

. . . .

If anyone claiming to be a prophet makes profit and lives like a member of the moneyed classes, for me he's no prophet, but more a profiteer.

If a man talks about God and how to live peaceably and lovably among men, and himself living frugally and in all simplicity: he's my prophet.

Susma Rio Sep

[brettz9]

Hello Phyllis,

Why would you say you doubt that we have true prophecy, "nowadays"?

Brett