Is sinning for experience better than sinning at all. Why or why not?

[Muhammad-Khalifa]

"Would God be happier with a person who does not commit a sin ,(by forcing himself not to, eventhough he wants to), more than a person who commits that sin,(because that is truly what he wants to do), but then realizes why it is a sin in the first place, therefore comes out with more appretiation, experience and understanding of the sin then the first person does? State if and why or why not that is true."

[Susma Rio Sep]

I remember reading that early Christian writers even called the original offense of Adam and Eve as a happy sin or a felicitous transgression, because it brought about the birth of the Son of God, Jesus, in the flesh to save mankind. If not for the original sin, there would never have come about the incarnation of the Son of God into a man in every respect.

OK, that's all medieval and even pristine Christian theology.

Here is my opinion about sinning and becoming wiser and more even appreciative of God's mercy and goodness.

A sin is a personal experience, and one usually comes out wiser with a new experience, provided you don't hurt yourself drastically like losing just a finger, and you don't hurt anyone else. What sins will not lose you even just a finger. Go use your imagination.

Secondly, if you are a believer in God and in His mercy and goodness, the kinds of sins I mention above is nothing to get all woked up about with God. He would not strike you dead right away; but you pray that you don't get into any accident which of course if you are theologically minded you might also pray that God keep accidents away from you.

As regards the intention to sin but with no commission because you were prevented from its execution, like you wanted to steal something but the alarm goes off and the guards arrive in time and you flee. Yes, that is already a sin in the eyes of God if God is like Susma who sees into the heart and mind of men.

Contrariwise, if you intend to do a good deed, like giving alms to the beggar, and then you discover you left your wallet in the car, then you have also got your merit noted in your accounting list with God. No matter you never parted with your money.

Summary: the intention counts, whether the execution follows of not.

In the law of human society, however, intention means nothing, you have got to complete the act of a criminal deed; because human law in a society is after just the external peace and order. You can entertain the most wicked thoughts in your heart and mind, and God will damn you for them, but the police has got no business whatever with them if he should even be able to see your heart and mind.

Back to sinning, if you have to sin, don't lose even just a finger and don't hurt anyone even just emotionally. Then God will not get so angry with you. But suppose you curse God? You must be kidding, God will laugh at you. Cursing God is an exercise in futility. You will get stomach ulcers. Better to learn to say to God, You are the boss, amen.


Susma Rio Sep

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Zdrastvuitsye, hola, shalom, salaam, Dia dhuit, namastar ji, hej, konnichiwa, squeak, meow, :wave:, Muhammad-Khalifa.

There was a story my brother once told a local priest. I think the ending is apropos to your question.

A Christian man who had lived his entire life following every rule concerning "Thou shalt"s and "Thou shalt not"s was lying on his deathbed and the local priest came to give him Last Rites. The priest came to the question of"Do you have any sins that you wish to confess" and the old man said, "No. I have lived an absolutely sinless life."

The old man died and found himself in Hell, which he couldn't understand since only sinners go to the Nether-region (spelling?). He thought long and hard about why he was there when he realized that by saying he led a sinless life, he committed the gravest sin: the sin of Pride.

I'm not saying that sinning is the better of the two, but admitting that man is fallable IS the better of the "three" (if you don't mind my adding a third possability.)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Zdrastvuitsye, hola, shalom, salaam, Dia dhuit, namastar ji, hej, konnichiwa, squeak, meow, :wave:, Muhammad-Khalifa.

There was a story my brother once told a local priest. I think the ending is apropos to your question.

A Christian man who had lived his entire life following every rule concerning "Thou shalt"s and "Thou shalt not"s was lying on his deathbed and the local priest came to give him Last Rites. The priest came to the question of"Do you have any sins that you wish to confess" and the old man said, "No. I have lived an absolutely sinless life."

The old man died and found himself in Hell, which he couldn't understand since only sinners go to the Nether-region (spelling?). He thought long and hard about why he was there when he realized that by saying he led a sinless life, he committed the gravest sin: the sin of Pride.

I'm not saying that sinning is the better of the two, but admitting that man is fallable IS the better of the "three" (if you don't mind my adding a third possability.)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Better then in your deathbed before the priest asking that kind of a question, just say: "God, You tell me the sins, and I will do the repenting. OK?"

On the other hand, didn't the Savior Himself exhort His followers to "Let your light shine before all men"; but of course "so that they will see your righteousness and praise your Father in heaven. And then there is that advisory about putting the candle on a candlestick and setting it atop somewhere on a high level.

Correct me, Biblical experts here.

Susma Rio Sep

[arthra]

Muhammad-Khalifa wrote:

"Would God be happier with a person who does not commit a sin ,(by forcing himself not to, eventhough he wants to), more than a person who commits that sin,(because that is truly what he wants to do), but then realizes why it is a sin in the first place, therefore comes out with more appretiation, experience and understanding of the sin then the first person does? State if and why or why not that is true."

Thanks for raising this question Khalifa and God's blessings on you!

God is Most Merciful of the Merciful!

Baha'u'llah revealed:

"He (a true seeker) should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!"

There is also a prayer that can be recited:

"Glorified art Thou, O Lord my God!

I beseech Thee by Thy Chosen Ones, and by the Bearers of Thy Trust, and by Him Whom Thou hast ordained to be the Seal of Thy Prophets and of Thy Messengers, to let Thy remembrance be my companion, and Thy love my aim, and Thy face my goal, and Thy name my lamp, and Thy wish my desire, and Thy pleasure my delight.
    
I am a sinner, O my Lord, and Thou art the Ever-Forgiving. As soon as I recognized Thee, I hastened to attain the exalted court of Thy loving-kindness. Forgive me, O my Lord, my sins which have hindered me from walking in the ways of Thy good-pleasure, and from attaining the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness.
    
There is no one, O my Lord, who can deal bountifully with me to whom I can turn my face, and none who can have compassion on me that I may crave his mercy. Cast me not out, I implore Thee, of the presence of Thy grace, neither do Thou withhold from me the outpourings of Thy generosity and bounty.

Ordain for me, O my Lord, what Thou hast ordained for them that love Thee, and write down for me what Thou hast written down for Thy chosen ones. My gaze hath, at all times, been fixed on the horizon of Thy gracious providence, and mine eyes bent upon the court of Thy tender mercies. Do with me as beseemeth Thee. No God is there but Thee, the God of power, the God of glory, Whose help is implored by all men."

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by Muhammad-Khalifa

"Would God be happier with a person who does not commit a sin ,(by forcing himself not to, eventhough he wants to), more than a person who commits that sin,(because that is truly what he wants to do), but then realizes why it is a sin in the first place, therefore comes out with more appretiation, experience and understanding of the sin then the first person does? State if and why or why not that is true."

Let me try to unravel this case of conscience:

1. There are two chaps here, John and Joseph.

2. John does not commit what is prohibited as a sin, even though he wants to but he restrains himself from doing it.

3. Joseph wants to do what is prohibited as a sin, and does it actually; but then he realizes why the act is prohibited as a sin and its logic.

4. With whom is God happier?

If Susma were God, Susma would be happier with John; because John trusts the wisdom of Susma in prohibiting a specific act as a sin. Susma would not be pleased with Joseph for his disobedience and disregard of God's wisdom in committing the sin; but Susma would be relieved that at least Joseph saw afterwards the wisdom of Susma's prohibition.


Moral of the story:

If you have the misfortune to have sinned, at least understand the reason for the sin's definition even just afterwards, and repent, and resolve not to sin again.

If you have not sinned, continue in your sinless state, even though sinning is so enticing; or don't believe in God or in His wisdom.

Susma Rio Sep

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Let me try to unravel this case of conscience:

1. There are two chaps here, John and Joseph.

2. John does not commit what is prohibited as a sin, even though he wants to but he restrains himself from doing it.

3. Joseph wants to do what is prohibited as a sin, and does it actually; but then he realizes why the act is prohibited as a sin and its logic.

4. With whom is God happier?

If Susma were God, Susma would be happier with John; because John trusts the wisdom of Susma in prohibiting a specific act as a sin. Susma would not be pleased with Joseph for his disobedience and disregard of God's wisdom in committing the sin; but Susma would be relieved that at least Joseph saw afterwards the wisdom of Susma's prohibition.


Moral of the story:

If you have the misfortune to have sinned, at least understand the reason for the sin's definition even just afterwards, and repent, and resolve not to sin again.

If you have not sinned, continue in your sinless state, even though sinning is so enticing; or don't believe in God or in His wisdom.

Susma Rio Sep

I have to agree with Susma Rio Sep on this one. Do you normally talk about yourself as a third person? or was it just for affect. I've never seen you do it before but you have twice in this thread. just wandering.

_________________________________________________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by JJM

I have to agree with Susma Rio Sep on this one. Do you normally talk about yourself as a third person? or was it just for affect. I've never seen you do it before but you have twice in this thread. just wandering.

_________________________________________________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

I would not pre-empt God's deliberations. So I used the caveat of saying that if I were God.

To some pious people that might seem irreverent. Yet, precisely I seem to see that in that way I would not be arrogating to myself God's deliberations.


Susma Rio Sep

[arthra]

Recall the story of the Prodigal Son?

Susma's "source" may have come from there....

"Your brother has come," he replied, "and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound." The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, "Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!" "My son," the father said, "you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." (Luke 15:11-32)

Note the words "because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again" ...He was dead in his sins perhaps and has returned to his father a "new" son is significant that when Jesus "raised" people from the dead it was in the sense of being raised to a new life.

There is a Buddhist version of the parable of the Prodigal Son in the Saddharmapundarika Sutra. See:

http://www.comparativereligion.com/prodigal.html

There is also some resonance of this in the Parable of the Lost Sheep....as well as the Parable of the poor woman finding the lost coin: the joy of finding and restoring what was lost.

- Art

[Muhammad-Khalifa]

I thank all of you (brothers and sisters) for your efforts in answering this question that has been bothering my mind for so long. Truly all of your views have helped me incredibly.

Sometimes people are not wise or strong enough to accept the teachings of the word of God/Allah, and sometimes people have to be taught how to believe in that message the hard way, through experiences.

"Is sinning for experience better than sinning at all. Why or why not?"

If I were to answer my own question, my answer would be to truly depend on God/Allah in presenting the enlightened and righteous path. I believe if your intensions are to be guided to that righteous path by depending on the All-Wise (God/Allah), either through experiences or teachings, depending on God/Allah's choice, you will.

[arthra]

Muhammad-Khalifa wrote:

"I believe if your intensions are to be guided to that righteous path by depending on the All-Wise (God/Allah), either through experiences or teachings, depending on God/Allah's choice, you will."

Very well written and I believe quite true!

- Art

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

of course the Buddhist one, as correctly pointed out on the referenced site, leads one to some rather different conclusions about the subject matter...

[arthra]

Vajradhara:

Namaste all,

of course the Buddhist one, as correctly pointed out on the referenced site, leads one to some rather different conclusions about the subject matter...

Comment;

Yet there are some intrigueing similarities reference the compassion for man by the Bodhisattwa and the simalar compassion of the father for the son in the parable as told by Jesus.

Yet another similar parable of interest is called the "Hymn of the Pearl":

http://two.not2.org/hesperides/stories/pearl.htm

It begins:

"When I was a little child,
and dwelling in my kingdom,
in my father's house, and was content with the wealth and the luxuries of my nourishers,
from the East, our home,
my parents equipped me (and) sent me forth;
and of the wealth of our treasury
they took abundantly, (and) tied up for me a load
large and (yet) light, which I myself could carry..."

- Art

[Marsh]

My Bible says that all of us have sinned, and not one of us is blameless on his own. Certainly God loves the sinless, but I don't think he expects it from us-- yet. For example, God loved David very, very much; the same David who committed adultery. Also, the same David who repented of his adultery.

My answer: God is happiest with the blameless, happy with the repentant, and unhappy with the wicked and unrepentant, because they are too proud to know they need to repent.

One point about the phrasing, though:

Originally Posted by Muhammad-Khalifa

[font=Courier New]"Would God be happier with a person who does not commit a sin ,(by forcing himself not to, eventhough he wants to),

The words "forcing himself not to" makes me think that this man is still sinning in his mind. I'm a firm believer in the idea that our intent matters more than our acts, and I think that if such a man thought about sinning all of the time, but didn't commit any sinful acts, BUT at the same time didn't repent of his sinful intents, God would also have some issues to discuss with him.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Marsh

God would also have some issues to discuss with him.

I liked the way you phrased that.