Is suicide morally or ethically wrong?

[earl]

Actually, wasn't that something certain Native American tribes used to practice? Earl

[Vajradhara]

Namaste juan,

thank you for the post

Originally Posted by juantoo3

But this last comment concerns me just a bit...is there any particular reason you might spend "fairly often" considering this? I am not asking pertaining to whether I consider the matter moral/ethical or not, I am asking out of concern for a friend.

oh nothing too dramatic, it's a common injunction within my tradition to contemplate the impermanence of existence.

in my opinion this consideration and the implications that it has are one of the most important things that we humans need to determine for ourselves, to the degree possible according with their capacity.

Being in continual pain with a degenerative disease, the thought has crossed my mind occasionally too. I feel it is a personal decision, one that should be deeply considered first.

i can certainly relate to this situation as i find it's effecting myself as well given the nature of my physical form. i would certainly agree that the ending of ones arising is a decision that need be deeply considered.

Life is a gift no matter what the source, ending it prematurely is in my opinion showing disrespect for the gift...presuming a "normal" existance.

interesting... arising as a human is, in the Buddhist world view, the single best arising that a being can have and as such it should be continued as long as possible but i wouldn't consider such to be a gift as it arises directly from our karma... then again, we've a different world view anyways

I allow myself the caveat that when it becomes unbearable, perhaps ending the suffering is the better path...but that is a bridge I will cross when I get there. That is a path for me, not one I advocate for others. There is something that just doesn't sit right with me encouraging others to throw away such a precious gift as life is.

thank you.

so.. in relation to the question, it seems that you'd suggest that suicide is neither moral/immoral or ethical/unethical, is that correct?

metta,

~v

[earl]

V. I don't know if your thread represents a very personal, intimate struggle with the issue. Certainly, I would not put forth a "judgment" re that. However, if your probe is more philosophical, I would answer philosophically. From a Buddhist perspective, suicide is not apparently condoned:

Buddhism and Suicide - Damien Keown

May you be well, Earl

[Vajradhara]

Namaste earl,

i'm curious regarding to view and answer to the OP, i've nothing going on at the moment in such a regard

metta,

~v

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

so.. in relation to the question, it seems that you'd suggest that suicide is neither moral/immoral or ethical/unethical, is that correct?

As in most things I tend to weigh matters on a case by case basis.

According to my tradition, suicide is unethical and sinful. For this reason I do not advocate for it or advise it as a general rule. This is also a portion of the reason it should be carefully considered before proceeding. As I mentioned, it is a disrespect (or disregard if you prefer) for the gift. Perhaps better understood as squandering a precious resource.

I can also intimately appreciate extraordinary physical pain and suffering. My mind does not require a great deal of imagination to understand that debilitating and painful disease serves little purpose for spiritual edification. The martyr complex can be assuaged at a much lesser frequency and level. Even self-inflicted emotional trauma can bear spiritual fruit, but overwhelming physical pain leads to torment and agony with nothing of spiritual value to be gained.

It took a physical therapist to break me of one of my cherished delusions. I used to kid myself, "I'm a man, I can take a little pain." And a little more, and a little more. "After all," I reasoned, "women can put up with the pain of childbirth."

"Ah," she responded, "the pain of childbirth ends, and there is the gift of the child at that end. What do you have to show for your pain?" Nothing.

Needless to say I have not considered enduring pain in the same way since.

Don't get me wrong. Low grade pain I consider a nuisance I simply have to deal with. But there are days, when I wonder if I can even drag myself to the vertical. Imagining days like that as my new normal, is simply unthinkable. Until then I will continue to do what I can to keep those days to a minimum.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by earl

Actually, wasn't that something certain Native American tribes used to practice? Earl

A variation on a theme. The Eskimo are said to have set their elders adrift, as so the Vikings.

[Tao_Equus]

I came across this today and was startled by its implications.

BBC NEWS | Health | Suicide linked to brain changes
The researchers, from the University of Western Ontario, Carleton University and University of Ottawa, analysed tissue from 10 people who had a serious depressive disorder and had committed suicide and 10 who had died suddenly from other causes, such as a heart attack.
They found that the DNA in the suicide group was being chemically modified by a process normally involved in regulating cell development, called methylation.
It is methylation which shuts down the unwanted genes in a cell - so the necessary genes are expressed to make a cell a skin cell rather than, for example, a heart cell.
The rate of methylation in the suicide brains was almost 10 times that of the other group, and the gene that was being shut down was a chemical message receptor that plays a major role in regulating behaviour.

Now the question is does the brain undergo those changes as a result of the depression or does the depression cause these changes. Many suicides are caused by circumstantial depression, not physiological depression. Yet all the brains exhibited the same anomalies. Very interesting research. To me it seems like you can 'groom' the brain into a suicidal state. This is something I have personally thought before from my own observation.

tao

[Quahom1]

Hmmm, permanent solution to a temporary problem...

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Now the question is does the brain undergo those changes as a result of the depression or does the depression cause these changes. Many suicides are caused by circumstantial depression, not physiological depression. Yet all the brains exhibited the same anomalies. Very interesting research. To me it seems like you can 'groom' the brain into a suicidal state. This is something I have personally thought before from my own observation.

It would go a way to validate the influence of epigenetics in changing the genetic signature. Nurture over nature, as it were.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Tao,

that is very interesting! i would like to see the study sample more beings before i'd draw any particular conclusions from it as the sample size is pretty small. still, it's quite promising insight into this discussion.

to continue the discussion, somewhat.

let us assume that what causes a person to commit suicide is a physiological issue. does that change the moral/ethical determination? by and large my understanding of morality and ethics are predicated upon choices taken by an individual being. if there is, literally, no choice is an action still immoral or unethical?

metta,

~v

[Snoopy]

Just an aside:

The phrase "commit suicide" comes from a time when it was a crime (the criminal logic of which is beyond me). It therefore immediately, by the very term, saying that it is an incorrect action in some way; the same as "committing" any other "-cide" is. As it is no longer a criminal offence I would prefer it if people did not use the term. A person may take their own life, but surely they have committed no crime (in the legal/criminal sense).

s.

[Dharmaatmaa]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

The phrase "commit suicide" comes from a time when it was a crime (the criminal logic of which is beyond me). It therefore immediately, by the very term, saying that it is an incorrect action in some way; the same as "committing" any other "-cide" is. As it is no longer a criminal offence I would prefer it if people did not use the term. A person may take their own life, but surely they have committed no crime (in the legal/criminal sense).

Very good linguistic research. And, no doubt, "commit suicide" takes its origin from "commit a crime". I may ensure you that in several, if not in most, languages this analogy's usually saved.

For ex, Latin "criminem committere", if I remember right, means the same. Polish phrase "popełnić przestępstwo" means verbatim the same as English. And Russian "совершить преступление" means word for word "to commit a crime". In all these cases, "to commit" goes nearby with "suicide" every time. I believe it has its logical ground. It was a linguistical viewpoint.

Next. In most law systems of the modern world humane life is the biggest value. Criminal laws prove that. But suicide isn't a crime, because in the structure in such a crime there can't be object of a crime. Any crime consists of subject, object, objective and subjective parts. If any part lacks - the crime doesn't take place. It's the Criminal Law.

And ethically mud this viewpoint is. Suicide is a crime! And it doesn't matter if state protects it by criminal laws or does not.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste snoopy,

thank you for the post.

doesn't a being commit themselves to a course of action? commit themselves to a cause? if such is the case i don't see the negative connotation with the term commit.

commit Averb
1 give, dedicate, consecrate, commit, devote

give entirely to a specific person, activity, or cause; "She committed herself to the work of God"; "give one's talents to a good cause"; "consecrate your life to the church"

Category Tree:use; utilize; utilise; apply; employ╚give, dedicate, consecrate, commit, devote╚rededicate
╚vow; consecrate



2 invest, put, commit, place

make an investment; "Put money into bonds"

Category Tree:transfer╚give╚pay╚spend; expend; drop╚invest, put, commit, place╚buy into
╚speculate; job
╚tie up
╚shelter
╚roll over
╚fund






3 commit, institutionalize, institutionalise, send, charge

cause to be admitted; of persons to an institution; "After the second episode, she had to be committed"; "he was committed to prison"

Category Tree:move; displace╚transfer╚commit, institutionalize, institutionalise, send, charge╚hospitalize; hospitalise




4 entrust, intrust, trust, confide, commit

confer a trust upon; "The messenger was entrusted with the general's secret"; "I commit my soul to God"

Category Tree:transfer╚pass; hand; reach; pass on; turn over; give╚entrust, intrust, trust, confide, commit╚obligate
╚recommit
╚consign; charge
╚commend




5 perpetrate, commit, pull

perform an act, usually with a negative connotation; "perpetrate a crime"; "pull a bank robbery"

Category Tree:act; move╚perpetrate, commit, pull╚recommit
╚make



like many words in English the context is very important to determine the meaning of the term in question, so it would seem.

that said, the question isn't so much of the legal status rather the moral implications.

metta,

~v

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

like many words in English the context is very important to determine the meaning of the term in question, so it would seem.

that said, the question isn't so much of the legal status rather the moral implications.

metta,

~v

Yes, one can commit to an action and the verb can be "neutral" in that sense. But the phrase "commit suicide" seems to me to be an anachronism; pertaining to a time when it was a criminal offence; -cide, as in homi- etc.

I'm not really trying to get all legalistic, except insofar as there is a moral dimension to an act simply if it is considered to be (or have been) an illegal / criminal act.

The taking of life (one's own) is a tragic occurrence, without it being tainted by such out-of-date and disrespectful overtones IMO.

s.

[juantoo3]

With all kindness, Snoopy,

I believe in the US it *is* yet a crime to take one's life. Hence the difficulties we still have reconciling laws to that effect in Oregon, or dealing with actions of the likes of Dr. Kevorkian. Or coming to terms with proposals by the Hemlock society and others.