Is the cry "Anti-semetic" overused?

[Tao_Equus]

I think some perspective is required here so I will post some statistics to get an overall picture of the situation there for the 5 years 2001 - 2006.

Total Israeli deaths : 1113
Total Palestinian deaths : 4209

Israeli Children: 113 women : 305 men : 603 settlers: 213 soldiers : 322
Palestinian Children : 892 women : 273 men : 3044.

117 Palestinian people died trying to get through Israeli checkpoints on their way to seek medical attention and 31 still births occurred at checkpoints.

561 Palestinians were extra-judicially executed. 253 bystanders were killed during these operations.

In addition 29,374 people have received a bullet or shrapnel wound or been treated for the effects of tear-gas. 3530 have been left permanently maimed or disabled. 576 of them School children. (Israel loves to hit a school!!)

As for land Israel has stolen 249,681 square kilometres of land, razed a further 73,613 sq k. in Palestinian control, demolished 7768 homes and uprooted 1,119,000 crop trees. Some here might call that helping the Palestinians diversify out of farming tho!!

These are the official UN figures. Human rights organisations paint an even sorrier picture.

Now forgive me if I am stupid but I see a slight imbalance in the level of violence being perpetrated here. And I repeat, if I was born and living in Gaza I would be angry. No I would be livid. hell I am livid living here!! How anybody can suggest that it is all their fault and they should just roll over and stop complaining... well .. I may be an atheist but some times I really wish there was a deeply vengeful, merciless tyrant of a God to bring the kind of justice they deserve. Sitting fat in a western city telling people how to behave is so damned easy aint it. I think anybody supporting Israel in this barbarity should be forced to live in Gaza. Fatuous people from the Fat Country.. well Gaza could do them good!!

Tao

[bob x]

Before the establishment of Israel in 1948, and before the occupation of the territories in 1967, the imbalance was entirely the other way. Do you blame the Israelis for wanting to minimize their own casualties? You can blame them for their indifference to the number of Palestinian casualties (at least when those casualties are bystanders, not attackers, as happens all too often), but the root of the problem is that the Palestinians also do not act to minimize their own casualties, and do act to maximize Israeli casualties.

How anybody can suggest that it is all their fault and they should just roll over and stop complaining...

No, I don't ask them to stop "complaining"; I do ask that they stop murdering. I won't give them much sympathy for their complaints until they do.

[Tao_Equus]

F
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FATUOUS
people make it very easy for Israeli terrorism.

[wil]

Originally Posted by bob x

Before the establishment of Israel in 1948, and before the occupation of the territories in 1967, the imbalance was entirely the other way. Do you blame the Israelis for wanting to minimize their own casualties? You can blame them for their indifference to the number of Palestinian casualties (at least when those casualties are bystanders, not attackers, as happens all too often), but the root of the problem is that the Palestinians also do not act to minimize their own casualties, and do act to maximize Israeli casualties.

No, I don't ask them to stop "complaining"; I do ask that they stop murdering. I won't give them much sympathy for their complaints until they do.

Is there a chart someplace that shows deaths on both sides for the past 70 years? That would be helpful....

[Muslimwoman]

Did anyone else see the news story today that Israel claim to have bombed a nuclear installation in Syria last month?

I found three things quite startling:

1. The news was released on the same day (ie today) that America changes direction and declares sanctions against Iran for 'supporting terrorism' (what happened to nuclear weapons or did the US realise that Iran wasn't going to react to that one?). Also the same day that the Israeli PM was in Downing St with the Brit PM. (May I add that I found it totally offensive that Brown held a press conference to talk about Arab countries with the Israeli PM standing next to him.)

2. Israel is saying it flew into another country and bombed the sh*t out of a building (which if it was a nuclear installation must have had people in at the time) and the international political community says .............. zero, zip, nada, nothing.

3. The two photo's that were shown were of the building before and after. In the after shot there is no rubble whatsoever. Not a single brick, pipe or even a hole in the ground. What it looks like is that the building simply ceased to exist (or was airbrushed out of the photo).

However, I was delighted that President Putin described Bush as a 'madman with a knife', I have never agreed with Putin more.

I really feel like I have enetered the twilight zone, Bush, Cheney and their mob are pushing the world rapidly toward WWIII and everyone is saying "that's nice dear".

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

I was talking about the Arabs who are citizens, within the "Green Line" Israel, not the situation within the territories.

I was not talking about the occupied terrorities either. Have you heard of Tel ‘Adasa, in East Jerusalem? This is land that Israel annexed in 1967 and a whole 68 Palestinians (incl. 26 children) live there (wow huge threat to Israel).

First of all these numbers suggest you should stop making offensive comments about the number of children Palestinians have - do the maths (42 adults, 26 children - let us assume 10 of the adults are elderly, that means 13 sets of parents and 26 children = 2 children per set of parents, gosh that is shockingly normal).

Secondly these people have lived on that land for generations. These people live in Israel but Israel refuses to recognise them as residents of Jerusalem, so they cannot have ID cards. Their tiny little community is now trapped between route 404 (which it is illegal for Palestinians to travel on), an industrial area and the seperation barrier which Israel chose to build excluding their little community. Therefore these people are now living in Israel 'illegally' according to Israel, their homes are also now illegal.

About 1km from their little village is the town of Bir Nebala, where they have been going to work, shop, get medical treatment and send their children to school. A gateway was left in the seperation barrier, manned by border police, which allowed the people of Tel 'Adasa to pass through to Bir Nebala without a permit.

On 12 September, without any warning, Israel closed the gateway. These people were then unable to go to their jobs, could not shop for food shop, go to school or see a doctor.

This is what B'Tselem said:

The refusal of Israel to recognize the residents of Tel ‘Adasa as residents of East Jerusalem, thereby turning them into persons staying illegally in Israel, gravely infringes their human rights, especially their right to freedom of movement, in flagrant breach of international law. The building of the Separation Barrier and the recent closing of the only opening in the barrier, which is their only way to get to and from the West Bank, prevents them from obtaining services outside Jerusalem . This situation has made their living conditions intolerable, and is liable to lead to the rapid removal of them from their homes.

B'Tselem calls on the Israeli government to dismantle the Separation Barrier in this area and recognize the right of the residents of Tel ‘Adasa to stay in East Jerusalem and move about there freely. Until then, the authorities must reopen the passageway in the Separation Barrier and issue permanent permits to the residents so that they will be able to cross Qalandiya Checkpoint.

This is nothing new for Palestinians living in Israel, soon these people will be starved out of their village, their homes will be bulldozed and the seperation barrier will be moved to take in that land, as has happened to many before.

I wonder, when they end up as refugees in Palestine if they will be angry enough to set off rockets in the direction of Israel?

Originally Posted by bob x

but the destruction of livelihoods for those Palestinians who were wanting to be productive has been a deliberate decision by the Palestinian leadership,

The above information begs to differ. What has the Palestinian leadership had to do with the plight of these people that just wanted to go to work, send their kids to school and get on with their lives?

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Did anyone else see the news story today that Israel claim to have bombed a nuclear installation in Syria last month?

It was very interesting for a few reasons - not least that Syria itself appears to have completely brushed up the site:
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Syria air strike target 'removed'

You raised concern about possible people inside at the time, but don't seem at all concerned about Syria attempting a clandestine nuclear development program?

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

What has the Palestinian leadership had to do with the plight of these people that just wanted to go to work, send their kids to school and get on with their lives?

Well, I'd recommend there's a huge difference in the impact of Hamas vs Abbas's governments in this instance.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

You raised concern about possible people inside at the time, but don't seem at all concerned about Syria attempting a clandestine nuclear development program?

Of course I am not concerned because I don't believe the story.

Even if we say the Syrians were building a structure to house a nuclear reactor, what right does that give Israel to go into another country and blow the building up? Do we only use diplomatic routes and inspections if Israel isn't involved? I am so sick of Israel breaking international laws and everybody just ignoring it. We have had all the reports about Iran refusing to let inspectors in - have you heard any about inspectors requesting to go into Syria?

[I, Brian]

Absolutely agreed - and the fact that there is no bomb crater, but instead a perfectly smoothed over landscape will all debris and sign of building work removed, suggests Syria is pretty keen for the world to ignore the site.

I don't think there's any claim of Syria having nuclear warheads -but trying to develop nuclear technology is another matter entirely.

It is an interesting story, nonetheless, that while the US sabre rattle on Iran, Israel is taking quiet steps against a purported Syrian development program.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Absolutely agreed - and the fact that there is no bomb crater, but instead a perfectly smoothed over landscape will all debris and sign of building work removed, suggests Syria is pretty keen for the world to ignore the site.

I don't think there's any claim of Syria having nuclear warheads -but trying to develop nuclear technology is another matter entirely.

It is an interesting story, nonetheless, that while the US sabre rattle on Iran, Israel is taking quiet steps against a purported Syrian development program.

Sorry I edited my earlier post to deal more with that issue. Surely the only danger in Syria having nuclear capability would be if they were developing nuclear weapons?

[farhan]

Is there a chart someplace that shows deaths on both sides for the past 70 years? That would be helpful....

Little encyclopedias on palestenian side of the story.

Start of: Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem

Research Guide to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Sorry I edited my earlier post to deal more with that issue. Surely the only danger in Syria having nuclear capability would be if they were developing nuclear weapons?

Dunno. Ask the Lebanese.

Point is "if" Syria were really working on a clandestine program, we're almost certainly dealing with a different situation than with Iran. At least Iran has had the IAEA in. The suggestion from the media (which does look somewhat "tugged" to cover the Syria issue, is that Syria were trying to cook somethng up while no one else was looking.

Saw another interesting report that suggested Israel can actually fed false data to the Russian-built radar systems the Syrians were using, allowing them to fly in without even being noticed. No idea if that's one for the tin hat file, but considering the recent discussions on Washington and Russia's ideas for radar monitoring, would suggest an additional level to the whole topic.

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by bob x

"Jews only could " purchase " land, well now they are the only ones who can legally lease and own. "
Are you completely unaware that there are Arabs who not only live in Israel as citizens but *gasp!* own their own homes?

Probably illegally or under so many restrictions that it's not even " owning " anymore. Most land formerly owned by Jews or the state of Israel never reverts to non-Jews. That's a whole LOT of land.

"The adoption of guerilla warfare is surely a sign that they have no other choice. "
No, it isn't. They have chosen the path of violence, and I will not listen to them whine about how the violence has gone badly for them. How sympathetic are Russians to the Chechens? After Beslan schoolhouse, not even a tiny bit. The Chechens, however, seem to have decided to STOP IT.

Alright, guerilla warfare wasn't the way to go, but it's not like they can try diplomacy with Israel. We all know how that ends.

The Chechens really haven't stopped, they just haven't done anything big since Beslan.

"not the fact that their children are malnourished "
They shouldn't pump out babies that they can't support. Who are you going to rob to pay for feeding their children?

The ultra upper class who don't need it anyway? Aid packages from other countries who are much wealthier?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Point is "if" Syria were really working on a clandestine program, we're almost certainly dealing with a different situation than with Iran. At least Iran has had the IAEA in. The suggestion from the media (which does look somewhat "tugged" to cover the Syria issue, is that Syria were trying to cook somethng up while no one else was looking.

Sorry but I have become a total cynic when it comes to info about that area of the world. Israel is always the first to bring anything it doesn't like to the world stage, so why keep so quiet about this? I just feel they have got away with so much now that they believe themselves to be a law unto themselves.

The moment Ahmadinijad says 'boo' the world press is all over it, yet this story has gone virtually unnoticed. Why? If the world thinks Syria is trying to sneak a nuclear reactor in then why isn't it throwing it's weight around like it is with Iran? It makes me think the whole thing is a bit fishy.

Either way why is it ok for us to have nuclear reactors but insist no-one else can unless they are in our gang?

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Saw another interesting report that suggested Israel can actually fed false data to the Russian-built radar systems the Syrians were using, allowing them to fly in without even being noticed. No idea if that's one for the tin hat file, but considering the recent discussions on Washington and Russia's ideas for radar monitoring, would suggest an additional level to the whole topic.

I have not heard the story but it would not surprise me in the least. Israel is backed by western technology and it is an eye opener when you see what we can manipulate. Syria also have quite an impressive airforce, so makes you wonder how Israel got in, bombed a building and got out without Syrian jets leaving the ground?

[Pathless]

MW, thanks for posting about the Israel-Syria bit.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Either way why is it ok for us to have nuclear reactors but insist no-one else can unless they are in our gang?

Exactly. It's like the world is degenerating into an order of gangs. Those with the most deadly weapons make the rules--which is why no one else can have nukes except western civilization. Of course, degenerating isn't the right word to use. It's been that way for centuries; only know it's becoming more coherent and obvious.

One thing that has occured to me about the conflict between the created state of Israel and Palestine is that it is another manifestation of colonization by western civilization. This particular emigration of westerners commenced during WWI, with the polite Balfour Declaration by the British Government. According to this summary timeline, Britain and France had decided to split certain provinces of the Ottoman Empire between themselves. They make a pretence of concern for the natives, but subsequent actions reveal true intentions.

So: Israel, a created state of western powers easily gets western sympathy, while the people displaced by the occupying western powers are demonized and told to suck it up and play by the rules. When they protest that the rules are weighted and unfair, when they resist, they are further demonized.

Do I understand the situation correctly?