Is the cry "Anti-semetic" overused? - Page 4

Muslimwoman · 06-22-2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Personally, even though I do not allign myself to anyone, I am pretty annoyed that here in the West, the media portray the Muslims as some sort of threat, when in fact the biggest threat of all comes from the so called country of Israel*

Can we first seperate out the two issues. The political madness in Israel is not the same issue as mass murder of people for their religious beliefs.

I don't believe it is a case of who is the bigger threat today, the Israeli's or the Muslims. The world is threatened by both. Some extremist Muslims are a certain threat to world peace (if such a thing could ever exist). Also the Israeli governments treatment of the Palastinians is stretching world political opinion to breaking point. USA and UK have supported Israel to the hilt and are now beginning to suffer the backlash. Both of these issues, however, are political. I hold just as much contempt for the Israeli government as I do for Muslim extremists.

As for the religious issue of WWII. As I said, the original plan was to shut Jews out of German society by economic means, this then evolved to the movement of Jews to ghettos in cities (look up Einsatzgruppen) and then the plan grew into deporting them to other countries. Then the political fears of Jewish intergration in other countries came into play, as Hitler encountered political resistance from the outside world. The final solution changed the plan from segregation and deportation to extermination. People forget that the world stood by for some time as the first plan was going on. We could liken it to the political support (and blind eye) given to Saddam Hussain, which then turned against him in a big way - he was only useful to the west up to a point.

In 1942 Joseph Goebbels wrote in his diary "The Fuehrer... expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe... Not much will remain of the Jews. About sixty per cent of them will have to be liquidated; only about forty per cent can be used for forced labour."

I am confused why the numbers appear so important to you. Did 6 million Jews die or 2.5 million? Either way it is 6 or 2.5 million too many. Men, women and children were murdered because they belonged to the Jewish faith and you feel it is important to argue about numbers?

enlightenment · 06-22-2007, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Can we first seperate out the two issues. The political madness in Israel is not the same issue as mass murder of people for their religious beliefs.

It had nothing to do with religous beliefs. Why do you assert this to be the case, as fact?

I don't believe it is a case of who is the bigger threat today, the Israeli's or the Muslims. The world is threatened by both. Some extremist Muslims are a certain threat to world peace (if such a thing could ever exist). Also the Israeli governments treatment of the Palastinians is stretching world political opinion to breaking point. USA and UK have supported Israel to the hilt and are now beginning to suffer the backlash. Both of these issues, however, are political. I hold just as much contempt for the Israeli government as I do for Muslim extremists.

While I am not Muslim, I beleive there would be less Muslim 'extremism' if the apartheid state, backed by the USA, and APAIC, did not support Israel, with weapons, and ££££ aid. Israel are wealthy anyway, why do they need other nations money? They are the world's largest welfare state, they use the US and the UK as their attack dogs, and they laugh, as the blood of our soldiers is spilled carrying out their agenda.

As for the religious issue of WWII. As I said, the original plan was to shut Jews out of German society by economic means, this then evolved to the movement of Jews to ghettos in cities (look up Einsatzgruppen) and then the plan grew into deporting them to other countries. Then the political fears of Jewish intergration in other countries came into play, as Hitler encountered political resistance from the outside world. The final solution changed the plan from segregation and deportation to extermination. People forget that the world stood by for some time as the first plan was going on. We could liken it to the political support (and blind eye) given to Saddam Hussain, which then turned against him in a big way - he was only useful to the west up to a point.

The Jews attempted to create a state within Germany, and declared war on the German people. DO you wish me to show you proof of that?

I am confused why the numbers appear so important to you. Did 6 million Jews die or 2.5 million? Either way it is 6 or 2.5 million too many. Men, women and children were murdered because they belonged to the Jewish faith and you feel it is important to argue about numbers?

See, here we go again. Did six million Jews die? Well, that figure seems important to THEM! LOL, and you use the term "Jews die", well, did you not state earlier that homosexuals and gypsies also perished? And, yet, I look around, and do not see Gayland, or Crystalball Land, do you!

enlightenment · 06-22-2007, 02:04 AM

YouTube - AIPAC is pushing us to war with Iran for Israel

enlightenment · 06-22-2007, 02:16 AM

The "Wipe Israel Off The Map" Hoax

enlightenment · 06-22-2007, 04:01 AM

Why is the Holocaust story important to Israel?
a) Israel's 1948 declaration of independence states the reason that state was being founded was the Holocaust had shown there was a need for a Jewish state as a place of refuge for Jews suffering persecution. Without the Holocaust, there is no demonstrated need for a Jewish state. The Israeli government therefore considers any questioning of the Holocaust to be a questioning of Israel's right to exist. It passed a law in the early 1980's making questioning, or minimizing the Holocaust a crime punishable by a sentence of five years in prison-a sentence more severe than the one in Israeli law for questioning God's existence.

Tao_Equus · 06-22-2007, 05:31 AM

Hi Enlightenment,

I find this issue that seems to you be so crucial, the 6 million number, to be of absolutely no relevance to anything including any justification for the existence of the state of Israel. Whether or not it is of significance symbolically to Jews or not is also irrelevant. The fact is the Nazi's did exterminate a lot of Jews and other minorities and to try and hijack political capital out of it is as wrong for anybody and any group. Two wrongs just never make a right. Holocaust denial is as rancid a notion as is Israel's occupation of Palestine.

I think the way you present your anger at the state of things only feeds into the Zionist hardliners cause and rather than foster a search for solutions only polarises positions still further. I hate what the state of Israel has become and if anyone is to blame it is the USA and the UK. Denial of Nazi atrocities whether of fact or scale is not going to help anyone.

TE

Postmaster · 06-22-2007, 10:04 AM

Also the American constitution protects the rights of any ethnic minority, it's not like the Jewish people didn't have anywhere to call home. The constitution was drawn up by the freemasons who believed that all religious books and all people were equal in the eyes of God.

As for the first video enlightenment posted from youtube I have spotted misinformation in it. "Israel is the only country not to grant refugees the right to return" is a fabrication, they are not the only ones.

enlightenment · 06-22-2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Hi Enlightenment,

I find this issue that seems to you be so crucial, the 6 million number, to be of absolutely no relevance to anything including any justification for the existence of the state of Israel. Whether or not it is of significance symbolically to Jews or not is also irrelevant. The fact is the Nazi's did exterminate a lot of Jews and other minorities and to try and hijack political capital out of it is as wrong for anybody and any group. Two wrongs just never make a right. Holocaust denial is as rancid a notion as is Israel's occupation of Palestine.

I think the way you present your anger at the state of things only feeds into the Zionist hardliners cause and rather than foster a search for solutions only polarises positions still further. I hate what the state of Israel has become and if anyone is to blame it is the USA and the UK. Denial of Nazi atrocities whether of fact or scale is not going to help anyone.

TE

I never mentioned hatred.

Contempt perhaps.

But not hatred.

The six million number means nothing to me, but since it is bandied around as historical fact, I do happen to think that is has some significance, or should have.

Nazi Germany, whatever you think of it, has gone, it has fallen.

What we have now is Nazi Israel.

And a lot of ordinary people supporting that.

Nor do I think anyone should ever be jailed or harassed for challenging any part of history, do you?

Thank you

Muslimwoman · 06-22-2007, 12:28 PM

Sorry did I read you correctly - the extermination of the Jews was nothing to do with religious belief? So are you asserting that it was mere coincidence that millions (be that 6 or 2.5 or any number in between) of people killed in the death camps just happened to be of the Jewish faith? Was the Law issued in Nuremburg Sep 15 1935 for the Protection of German Blood and Honour nothing to do with religious belief? Have you read it? (If not I only have it in German but can try to translate it for you).

Does the outrageous behaviour of the Israeli government add to Muslim extremism? YES and I am Muslim. However, if the Israeli issue ended tomorrow and they welcomed Arabs with open arms the extremists would find a new enemy - that is what extremists do. However a resolution to the Israeli issue would certainly ease tensions with all Muslims, including moderates. It would allow moderates more room to challenge the actions of extremists.

I rarely use the word expert but in this case I shall. My father is an expert on WWII history. I was born and raised in Germany (yes I am 5'9" and very blonde - good German stock) and my father spent years studying original documentation regarding the Third Reich. So I called Dad today to ask him about Jews trying to make a Jewish state in Germany and declaring war on Germany, as I had never heard this theory before (even though I am old enough that in my school we were taught that the concentration camps never existed and were mere propaganda). My Dad says this is nothing but a conspiracy theory designed by those that wish to deny history.

You are welcome to provide your 'proof' but I would need to read it in German and know the provenance of the document(s). I could then pass this to my Dad for comment.

Gayland and Crystalball Land. Did you forget Social Democrat Land, Communistland, Twinland, Jehova Witnessland, Clergymenland, IntellectualLand and there was even NaziLand for those that refused to accept certain orders (my apologies to any minority groups I have forgotten to mention). There is little point discussing with you the issues of why the Jewish nation demanded a state of their own or the awful failures in this political process of the USA and to a lesser extent the UK, as you do not think the Jews were persecuted for their religious belief.

Just so you know, I in no way attempt to defend the offensive behaviour of the Israeli government or the wests role in creating arab/Israeli conflict. I am delighted that you wish other minority groups, murdered in the war, to be remembered, as they are indeed often forgotten. However, denial that millions of people died based solely on their religious belief is somewhat ignorant, disrespectful and quite honestly fanciful.

enlightenment · 06-22-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Does the outrageous behaviour of the Israeli government add to Muslim extremism? YES and I am Muslim. However, if the Israeli issue ended tomorrow and they welcomed Arabs with open arms the extremists would find a new enemy - that is what extremists do. However a resolution to the Israeli issue would certainly ease tensions with all Muslims, including moderates. It would allow moderates more room to challenge the actions of extremists.

Personally speaking, I do not think Israel, or certain Muslim extremists want peace or a resolution, at all, I think that is all just a facade.

Perhaps, nations in Europe and the US should just leave them to get on with it, unaided by financial support, or military support. Maybe that would be the best thing. If they resolve it for themselves, good, if they don't, well they don't.

I rarely use the word expert but in this case I shall. My father is an expert on WWII history. I was born and raised in Germany (yes I am 5'9" and very blonde - good German stock) and my father spent years studying original documentation regarding the Third Reich. So I called Dad today to ask him about Jews trying to make a Jewish state in Germany and declaring war on Germany, as I had never heard this theory before (even though I am old enough that in my school we were taught that the concentration camps never existed and were mere propaganda). My Dad says this is nothing but a conspiracy theory designed by those that wish to deny history.

I do not see how you having blonde hair and blue eyes has anything to do with this, unless you are alluding to another popular and accepted myth that the aim was to create a race of people that looked precisely like that. There are a lot of myths like that which circulate. For example, the one about Hitler being part Jewish. I don't obviously know your dad, I am sure he is a nice man, but remember, history is written by the victors, and human testimony is among the worst that there is.

You are welcome to provide your 'proof' but I would need to read it in German and know the provenance of the document(s). I could then pass this to my Dad for comment.

For the moment, I do not have the time, and that is the truth.

Gayland and Crystalball Land. Did you forget Social Democrat Land, Communistland, Twinland, Jehova Witnessland, Clergymenland, IntellectualLand and there was even NaziLand for those that refused to accept certain orders (my apologies to any minority groups I have forgotten to mention).

No, I did not forget those. So why then do we not have Gayland, Crystal Ball Land, etc? The Jews beleive everything they do to be special. Their suffering is somehow greater, because they are special, and claim to be 'The Chosen'.

Just so you know, I in no way attempt to defend the offensive behaviour of the Israeli government or the wests role in creating arab/Israeli conflict. I am delighted that you wish other minority groups, murdered in the war, to be remembered, as they are indeed often forgotten. However, denial that millions of people died based solely on their religious belief is somewhat ignorant, disrespectful and quite honestly fanciful.

Have a nice weekend then

Thanks

Tao_Equus · 06-22-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enlightenment

I never mentioned hatred.

Contempt perhaps.

But not hatred.

The six million number means nothing to me, but since it is bandied around as historical fact, I do happen to think that is has some significance, or should have.

Nazi Germany, whatever you think of it, has gone, it has fallen.

What we have now is Nazi Israel.

And a lot of ordinary people supporting that.

Nor do I think anyone should ever be jailed or harassed for challenging any part of history, do you?

Thank you

I never said you did mention hatred... I did tho. It is a word I very very rarely use and never lightly. But I do hate what Israel has become. It is tempting to use your words Nazi Israel and very many would sympathise with the sentiment you intend but what respect does that show the countless Jews that died or remember family that died at the hands of the Nazi's? It is not accurate either, you dont have to be a Nazi to be a fascist.

The inordinate power and influence that a few Jews have is not an argument for blaming Jews as a whole. That is a Nazi stance. Many Jews put themselves in the front-line of fighting for truth and justice and as your first link shows Israel has the highest number of conscientious objectors of any army. Having been to Israel myself and worked on a kibbutz I know first hand that the sheer humanity of the average Israeli is not in any way a reflection of the state. Some of the most humane and respected people I have ever has the good fortune to spend any time with have been Jewish and in all that time you know the question of their faith was never raised. People like Leon Rosenberg, a corrective surgeon who travels the world performing for free surgery to correct war wounds and mutilations. You maybe remember the Peruvian boy "David" rescued by a Glasgow surgeon. Well Leon was on the surgical team for him. In my travels with him i saw first hand his compassion where he would hand out his card to those he found had been left scarred by war and tell them to phone to arrange to have them healed. He is an exceptional man. But his humanity is typical of the many in Israel.

Painting broad strokes is rarely helpful and yes I know I am sometimes guilty of it. But when you criticise something as nasty as Israeli state policy you have to be accurate or else you end up only giving them more power. Its that simple. Its easy to get caught up in the passionate anger that the powerful Jews foster in their disregard for all humanity. But to blame all Jews is not a solution and as I said already... only helps these evil people.

Regards

TE

Muslimwoman · 06-22-2007, 02:21 PM

Oh great idea - the USA and Europe create a complete f**k up in Middle East and then should say "Oops" and sculk away lol. Sorry but this will not help. They must withdraw their support (financial, weapons, etc) to the Israeli government and the international community has to tell Israel to stick to the international conventions they have signed up to or face international opposition. This is how the international community would deal with any country repeatedly flouting human rights laws. Once the Israeli government is running within international guidelines then the west can help set up an arab/Israeli group to decide Middle East policy with international monitors (from non US or UK sources). Just my opinion on a solution of course.

The word Aryan (often spelt Arian) comes from the Persian language, as does the schwastica originate from a Persian symbol called the Chalipa. Hitler had an extremely good relationship with the Persians, even though he did not want arab blood mixed with 'white' blood. So the original term for the Aryan race is in fact referring to Persian, Greeks, etc. However, as Islam simply means submission to G-d, it has now come to be known as a specific religion, same with the word Muslim. So the word Aryan came to symbolise Hitler's desire to create a race free from impurity (pure white blood). Yes this is often referred to as blonde hair and blue eyes but his aim was about bloodline not looks. I refer again to the Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honour. This law states that marriage, extra marital affairs, german women not allowed to work in Jewish homes (just in case) and Jews not allowed to display the Reichs colours (German flag). It also sets out punishments. Hitlers desire to create a pure blood line is well documented, including the Third Reichs medical experiments in this area and the laws set to establish a pure blood line, so to call it a myth smacks of racism and lack of acceptance of historical fact.

As for my Dad being a nice man or not is matterless, what I was alluding to is his knowledge on this subject. As for history being written by the victors, I like to think I am never one to hide from the truth, so do accept this to often be the case. However, I hold to my fathers years of study into the original documents (rather than translations) and to my own education in a German school, as acceptance of the truth filtered into our education system.

Your comment about Jews believing they are special made me think about the slave trade in USA. To me it was not about Jews feeling special, rather they felt persecuted. I would imagine the black slaves felt the same? I know nothing of US history so perhaps one of our American friends can let us know how the freed slaves reacted after slavery was abolished in the US. Did groups ask for an area of their own or repatriation to homelands or money? How did they feel, what did they want (other than their freedom of course)? I only ask because this may speak to how the Jews reacted to the persecution by the Nazi's?

Have a good weekend too
Salaam

enlightenment · 06-22-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I never said you did mention hatred... I did tho. It is a word I very very rarely use and never lightly. But I do hate what Israel has become. It is tempting to use your words Nazi Israel and very many would sympathise with the sentiment you intend but what respect does that show the countless Jews that died or remember family that died at the hands of the Nazi's? It is not accurate either, you dont have to be a Nazi to be a fascist.

No, you are right, you did not say that, you said anger. And yes, I am angry. I am angry that the Zion Nazi's of Israel are using the USA and the UK, for their ethnic cleansing programme. Did you know, for example, that they have been working on a etho-bomb that would (on impact), kill Arabs, and not Jews? The problem they had with that is they share the same semite bloodline, however, given that their main enemy is Iran, who are Persian not Arab, they are pressing ahead with it. And you are right, Nazism and Fascism are two different things.

Italy was Fascist under Mussolini, but he was less interested in race than the leaders of Nazi Germany.

I would say Israel is more Nazi than Fascist, based on that.

The inordinate power and influence that a few Jews have is not an argument for blaming Jews as a whole. That is a Nazi stance. Many Jews put themselves in the front-line of fighting for truth and justice and as your first link shows Israel has the highest number of conscientious objectors of any army. Having been to Israel myself and worked on a kibbutz I know first hand that the sheer humanity of the average Israeli is not in any way a reflection of the state. Some of the most humane and respected people I have ever has the good fortune to spend any time with have been Jewish and in all that time you know the question of their faith was never raised. People like Leon Rosenberg, a corrective surgeon who travels the world performing for free surgery to correct war wounds and mutilations. You maybe remember the Peruvian boy "David" rescued by a Glasgow surgeon. Well Leon was on the surgical team for him. In my travels with him i saw first hand his compassion where he would hand out his card to those he found had been left scarred by war and tell them to phone to arrange to have them healed. He is an exceptional man. But his humanity is typical of the many in Israel.

Naturally, it would be stupid in the extreme to blame all Jews, that said, they do have a disproportionate influence in US politics, banking and media, and here in the UK, as well.

Painting broad strokes is rarely helpful and yes I know I am sometimes guilty of it. But when you criticise something as nasty as Israeli state policy you have to be accurate or else you end up only giving them more power. Its that simple. Its easy to get caught up in the passionate anger that the powerful Jews foster in their disregard for all humanity. But to blame all Jews is not a solution and as I said already... only helps these evil people.

Regards

TE

Fair play.

This is slightly off topic, but you seem like an intelligent guy, and I read that you have been to Israel.

What does the term Neobis mean?

Does it mean anything at all?

enlightenment · 06-22-2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

They must withdraw their support (financial, weapons, etc) to the Israeli government and the international community has to tell Israel to stick to the international conventions they have signed up to or face international opposition.

The USA will NOT do this, I can assure you.

And Israel have already broken countless UN laws and resolutions, and somehow, I wonder why, they get away with it.

I wonder why....

enlightenment · 06-22-2007, 03:27 PM

Anti-Israel rabbis support Iran

Sunday 12 March 2006, 18:35 Makka Time, 15:35 GMT

Members of an orthodox Jewish sect have met top Iranian officials in Tehran to show support for the Iranian president's call for the destruction of Israel, reports say.

Leading rabbis of Neturei Karta, an anti-Zionist group of ultra-Orthodox Jews who consider the existence of Israel an abomination, met with Gholamreza Aghazadeh, Iran's Vice President, the top-selling Yediot Aharonot reported.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said the Jewish state "must be wiped off the map" or moved as far away as Alaska - comments that have provoked anger in the West and condemnation from the UN Security Council.

Rabbi Dovid Weiss, the group's spokesman, was quoted as supporting Ahmadinejad's call during an interview on Iranian television last week.

Although all of the rabbis who visited Iran live in either New York or London, there are some 400 Neturei Karta families living in Jerusalem who refuse to recognise Israel's authority.

'Wish for calm'

The Iranian Fars News Agency reports that the group said in a statement that Ahmadinejad's call for a "world free from Zionism ... is nothing more than wishing for a better world dominated by peace and calm."

"The issue of the Holocaust has to do with the Zionist use ... The Zionists are using this issue. We, the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust, do not use the Holocaust as a tool for promoting our cause"

Rabbi Dovid Weiss
Neturei Karta
"This means a true hope for a peaceful life and coexistence between the Jewish and Muslim communities following the dismantlement of the Zionist regime," the group's statement added.

The group also said that it was "a dangerous deviation" to pretend that the Iranian president is an anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic personality since President Ahmadinejad, in fact, restated what the late founder of the Islamic Republic Ayatollah Khomeini had frequently stated.

"That is, Zionism is different from Judaism and while the Zionist state of Israel must be disintegrated, the Jewish communities world wide and the religion of Judaism must be respected."

Holocaust

Following Ahmadinejad's claim that the Holocaust - the killing of an estimated six million Jews by the Nazis and their allies during World War II - was a myth used to justify the creation of Israel, the visiting rabbis agreed the mass killing had been hijacked by Zionists.

Weiss was quoted as saying: "The issue of the Holocaust has to do with the Zionist use ... The Zionists are using this issue. We, the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust, do not use the Holocaust as a tool for promoting our cause."

"Neturei Karta are well known for their hatred towards Israel," Yediot Aharonot wrote, "but it seems that this time they have crossed the line."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exe...715DC03C318.htm