Is the cry "Anti-semetic" overused?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Fully accepted.

I would never refer to anyone in that way.

Not ever.

Thank you, I am always the first to hold my hand up when I am wrong.

I am also jolly pleased to hear you would never speak to anyone this way.

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Thank you, I am always the first to hold my hand up when I am wrong.

I am also jolly pleased to hear you would never speak to anyone this way.

That is okay, it's forgotten.

We all make mistakes, heaven knows, I have made lots!

However, it takes a person of charachter to admit them, and to apolgise for them, as I always try to do, as well.

For the record, and to summarise my feelings on this thread, I abhor all bigotry and racism, of any type, however, my c&p's were there for a reason, see, I am trying to debunk someone, not on this forum, and I felt that this thread would be a good way to do that, ie; paste the info here, read what others make of it, then go back to the original source, with new information.

That said, I do feel that mankind is on a one way route to self destruction, alas.

Ordinary people, people like you and I, and most of the others on this thread, we are just being used as pawns.

The real enemy, imo, they pretend to hate one another, and it would not surprise me one little bit if they are secretly doing deals with one another, and laughing at us all, while they keep us divided with their hatred, propaganda, counter propaganda, lies, etc.

We are being farmed.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

That is okay, it's forgotten.

We all make mistakes, heaven knows, I have made lots!

However, it takes a person of charachter to admit them, and to apolgise for them, as I always try to do, as well.

For the record, and to summarise my feelings on this thread, I abhor all bigotry and racism, of any type, however, my c&p's were there for a reason, see, I am trying to debunk someone, not on this forum, and I felt that this thread would be a good way to do that, ie; paste the info here, read what others make of it, then go back to the original source, with new information.

That said, I do feel that mankind is on a one way route to self destruction, alas.

Ordinary people, people like you and I, and most of the others on this thread, we are just being used as pawns.

The real enemy, imo, they pretend to hate one another, and it would not surprise me one little bit if they are secretly doing deals with one another, and laughing at us all, while they keep us divided with their hatred, propaganda, counter propaganda, lies, etc.

We are being farmed.

Hi E !

I am not the whiz to do multi-quotes so i'l just run with what comes.

First off if I can make this absolutely clear to you nobody but nobody will give you a fairer hearing here than Dauer. I think he would rather cut off his own testes than gag you. And if he is a mod here I never knew.. I may be wrong but dont think he is. I think Bananabrain to be the Jewish forum mod and believe me, if he had replied u'd be applying after sun milk till christmas.

In large part I sympathise with your views, those that you eventually got round to stating in your own words. I think the post cold-war complacency in the west to be staggeringly naive. 99% of folk dont give a **** as long as they got a 50" LCD TV. But the world always has been run by a few mafiosa groups. Today it's the Kissenger/Putin/Jintao trio that control 99% of power, $'s, and futures for the world we live in. Blaming it on any Zionist conspiracy, however justified, is blaming it on a side issue in a much bigger picture. And yes they do co-operate to some degree, in the big lie they feed us peons. But they also hate each other. Thats the scariest part of it.

I have looked briefly at extreme anti-zionist sites in the past. They offer a good insight into a part of the picture but are so riven with hate that they disgust me. Like I said before 2 wrongs never make a right. The thing that makes CR different from any other forum site I have found is this willingness of people to find common ground regardless of our start point. One of the pivotal reasons for this is that people mostly speak in their own words. It is not that your C&P's are wholly unwelcome, but that many here (myself especially) will not entertain such prodding without a considerable source of relevance from the poster themselves. I personally dislike C&P's and links and rarely read them if they are the overwhelming weight of someone's point. And i dont use many myself because I enjoy being forced to the clarity that the type medium demands. Forces me (especially with my 2 finger stabs at the keyboard) to evaluate each word's merit and the sense of what I speak. Maybe not a whole lot of sense sometimes, but at least its my nonsense not somebody elses.

Anyhow i got to go, so i'l leave it at that.

Greetings from sunny leith!!

YouTube - The Proclaimers-Sunshine On Leith Full LengthVideo

[dauer]

Enlightenment,

As far as I am aware, the state of Israel was created in 1947(?), perhaps you can tell me, what was there before it was created?

Perhaps it would be a start if Israel stopped stealing more and more land, and gave back land that they have taken?

Before Israel was a state the area was under British control. I do think giving up land is necessary but also that it's not that simple. Politics never are. There's a lot of very valid fear in Israel about giving up land, and rightly so. There are also special interest groups that get very noisy within the state. Ideally I would love to be able to see a two-state solution with a shared capital, or even one state. But the second option I don't think is going to happen and the first I think we're quite a ways away from.

Tao,

First off if I can make this absolutely clear to you nobody but nobody will give you a fairer hearing here than Dauer. I think he would rather cut off his own testes than gag you.

I wouldn't go that far. I'm very attached to my little guys. But I'm certainly not one to go around trying to gag people because they disagree with me. I am one to go around encouraging constructive posts and meaningful dialogue. And yes I am a mod. I was running the interfaith parsha project. Then I tried to get the interfaith text study board off the ground but there wasn't much participation and I gave up on it. I've been a part of la familia for a year or two now I think.

I have looked briefly at extreme anti-zionist sites in the past. They offer a good insight into a part of the picture but are so riven with hate that they disgust me. Like I said before 2 wrongs never make a right.

I have to agree with this. If the sites are a lot of propaganda, no matter how true, I tend to look the other way and see if I can find something balanced. But when it comes to the Middle East that's verrrrry difficult. Everyone's got an angle.

Dauer

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

YouTube - The Proclaimers-Sunshine On Leith Full LengthVideo

Please, please, please, never subject me to that again!

106 and counting....

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

The real enemy, imo, they pretend to hate one another, and it would not surprise me one little bit if they are secretly doing deals with one another, and laughing at us all, while they keep us divided with their hatred, propaganda, counter propaganda, lies, etc.

We are being farmed.

HI E

But are you not allowing yourself to be farmed? By some of the things you have posted in this thread (facts are myths, non religious issue, etc), you are allowing us to remain divided with hatred and propaganda by repeating that propaganda. Had you posted this thread on the conspiracy theory board I would not have even commented because I could dismiss it. My personal view is that we should always look at both extreme views and then we usually find the truth somewhere in the middle.

If you are genuinely interested in this topic just PM me your questions and I can forward them to my Dad. His studies and papers, I find, are very balanced and do give due consideration to history being written by the victors, who produced what propoganda, etc. I can also look for sites containing info from the German government, some have transalations and tend to give a very balanced view.

[dauer]

mw,

If you can let me know where to find it in English, I would be very interested to see your Dad's work. Always good to read the stuff by historians who don't follow the popularist trends of analysis without getting all oedipal.

--Dauer

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by dauer

mw,

If you can let me know where to find it in English, I would be very interested to see your Dad's work. Always good to read the stuff by historians who don't follow the popularist trends of analysis without getting all oedipal.

--Dauer

Hi Dauer

None of my Dads work is on the internet (he is an old fogey - still writes with a fountain pen lol) but there are a few sites he goes for info, as he finds them reliable and balanced, some are produced by the german government. I shall ask him to let us know where and post them. I will ask my Dad if he will scan some papers and send them to me, then I can forward them to you but if I can please don't publish his name on the forum as this would be an indicator of my identity and I would be uncomfortable with that. Give me a couple of days and I shall see what he comes up with. Let me know if there is an area you are particularly interested in.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

I don't know if you have ever read it Dauer but the diary of Joseph Goebbels is a chilling insight to the political situation at the time. Don't read any of it on the net as it tends to have fanciful translations but if you can get a translation published soon after the war, the propaganda machine had not done it's work by then. It is sickening but is a genuine look into the collective mind of the Third Reich.

You can also see what you can find on the net by the International Dachau Committee. They have a lot of original documents and have been quite honest about the goings on in Dachau camp and wider political changes during the war. This link is the German site but I think if you google it you can ask for a translation:

KZ-Gedenkstätte Dachau

Just a starting point until I hear from my Dad.

[dauer]

Thanks mw.

I haven't read his diary. Usually I avoid Holocaust education because it's difficult for me to read the material. Come to think of it I tend not to read any stories about war and avoid reading about the contemporary wars too. I'm fascinated with the psychological element of wars and of societies at their extremes, both for the individuals and the general culture, and in the various motivations of the leaders and the people. But the details of what happened, things like that I usually stay away from.

I found an edition of Joseph Goebbel's diary on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Goebbels-Diari...2699333&sr=1-1

The cost of a new book is way out of my price range (123.95 :O ) But at as cheap as $9 for a used copy it's a great bargain. I'm sure I could go to the library and get a copy but that wouldn't sate my bibliophilia. Will have to add it to my next amazon order.

It looks like there is an English version of KZ-Gedenkstätte Dachau here: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.d...tent/index.htm

I have heard that the level of holocaust education in Germany has been somewhat damaging to the psyche of the next generations who had a sort of guilt-complex drilled into them. Did you find that to be the case when you were growing up?

Dauer

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by dauer

I have heard that the level of holocaust education in Germany has been somewhat damaging to the psyche of the next generations who had a sort of guilt-complex drilled into them. Did you find that to be the case when you were growing up?

Very much so. As I said, I am of an age where as a small child our education system simply denied the holocaust, so we were happy to believe it was just anti German propaganda. Then as time went on the truth began to filter into our education and came as a horrific shock. I remember the day I was 'introduced' to the truth - we were taken to the cellar of our school (where the cinema was) and shown a film of the death camps. We were told that "we" were responsible for this. Mainly due to international pressure the nation was forced to face the truth that we could not bury our heads in the sand and forget the war, it was in fact important to remember what had been done in order that it could never happen again. It was particularly difficult for me because I am half German and half English, so I lost family on both sides and trying to get my head round the fact that I was of the victors and of the perpetrators was a bit wierd - some of my relatives could have killed other relatives on the other side. There is a national guilt factor, which I am pleased is lessening now as time marches on, let's face it I wasn't even alive then and one day we have to let go (as long as we don't forget).

I gave you the Dachau link because it was the first camp, made in 1933 and was the model for all other camps. So a study of Dachau shows the changing policies and attitudes throughout the period, it was liberated in 1945. I would only order the book if you are able to look at the truth from an unemotional standpoint. Not trying to be rude or talk down to you but it is a very difficult read and can have a very depressing effect.

[Muslimwoman]

Dauer have you read anything by Yehuda Bauer? He is not typical of Jewish historians views and leans toward the politics side of things which may interest you?

Yehuda Bauer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This tells you his views and may give you an idea if his writing may interest you.

This is his address to the Bundestag (in english lol)

Address to the Bundestag- by Professor Yehuda Bauer

I do find him a little sensationalist at times but then I don't like politics.

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

HI E

But are you not allowing yourself to be farmed? By some of the things you have posted in this thread (facts are myths, non religious issue, etc), you are allowing us to remain divided with hatred and propaganda by repeating that propaganda. Had you posted this thread on the conspiracy theory board I would not have even commented because I could dismiss it. My personal view is that we should always look at both extreme views and then we usually find the truth somewhere in the middle.

If you are genuinely interested in this topic just PM me your questions and I can forward them to my Dad. His studies and papers, I find, are very balanced and do give due consideration to history being written by the victors, who produced what propoganda, etc. I can also look for sites containing info from the German government, some have transalations and tend to give a very balanced view.

You misunderstood my point.

I will try to make it again.

Right now, in this world, there are a tiny % of people that hold true power, and they influence all of all lives.

Some of them might be Jews, some might be atheists, some might be something else, it does not really matter.

They all have one thing in common.

They are rich, powerful, and capable of sparking of a third, and v possibly last, world war.

Do you know that a lot of money is being invested into colonising other planets, such as Mars?

Hey, those investors are not doing that for a laugh, they are doing it as a means of 'insurance'. because once they have blown this beautiful planet to pieces, once they have raped it of it's resources, once they have destroyed all the fellow creatures that share this planet with us, the same rich and powerful will need a new home.

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by dauer

I'm fascinated with the psychological element of wars

Question.

Do you think the majority of people on the planet really want true peace, no armies, no weapons, and no more wars, or do you think the bulk of humans are hard wired and predisposed to warring, and that is why it is perpetual in our history, Dauer?

[dauer]

mw,

Some of bauer's ideas are interesting, but I don't think he's someone I'd put in the time to read.

________________

enlightenment,

I think both are true. The majority of people really want true peace, no armies, no weapons and there is also a more primal part of ourselves that is predisposed to warring and in order to bring about that time of peace we need to learn to either redirect or transcend that part of ourselves. You only have to look at the evolution of the brain to see that our minds are in constant conflict.

But another issue is that most of us haven't woken up and a lot of us would rather remain sheep than do so. Being an individual is scary. It means taking responsibility and ownership and leaving a mindless meandering through life behind. It means opening one's eyes to the dystopian present and becoming aware of how different it is from the way things ought to be and not going back to sleep in an attempt to escape reality. Ignorance is bliss. And so then the corrupt shephard tells his flock "war is peace." As long as they don't become individuals, as long as they maintain their faith in their leaders, they can free themselves of personal responsibility, of sin as it were.

Dauer