Islam and The Bahai Faith

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

All the Imams were put to death except perhaps the last, who died as a child, in 260, and was succeeded for sixty-nine years by four successive "Gates" (abvab-i-arba'ih), who were known as his intermediaries. Then there was utter silence in Islam till the rise of the Báb in 1260 (the surih of Adoration states: "From the Heaven to the Earth He governeth all things: hereafter shall they come up to Him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon." (32:4). Hence the importance of the "Year Sixty.")
(Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam, p. 33)

When the twelfth Imam was said to have been occulted in the Islamic year 260, his absence was reconstituted as a mystical presence, such that the now Hidden Imam was continued to exercise spiritual sovereignty. (The Bab eventually claimed to be the "return" of the Hidden Imam.)
See Kitab-i-Iqan
by Christopher Buck
Published in Encyclopedia Iranica

The expectation of the Return of the Twelfth Imam and the Mahdi has been a common feature I think you could say. At first considering the title of Bab some may have thought this to mean a new intermediary between the Hidden Imam and the faithful but this understanding changed in time.

"On the other hand, the last Imam disappeared in the year 260 of the Hegira; it is at that time that the prophetic manifestation is completed and that `The door of science is closed.' But Mufaddal questioned the Imam Sadiq as to the signs of the coming of the Mihdi and the Imam answered: `He will appear in the year sixty and his name will be glorified.' This means in the year 1260 which is precisely the year of the manifestation of the Bab.
Cited from "The Dawn Breakers" Chapter XIII

The verses in Qur'an are not from a Muslim exegesis.

- Art

Dear Art;

Many thanks for your time to respond. My points:

1. If the 11th Imam dies in 260 AH and was not succeeded by another Imam immediately, who were the four deputies reporting to. Who appointed the four deputies - it cannot be the 11th Imam as the latter deputies were not even born at that time. Secondly, there is no indication that the 11th Imam appointed the deputies.

2. As regards the verse about 1,000 years is there some explanation by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imam (as) about the same.

3. Why is the calculation of the 1,000 years being done from the death of the 11th Imam. Is this verse refers to the term of Islam, revealed in the Quran, then Islam started 13 years prior to the Islamic calendar (the calender commenced at the migration of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) from Mecca to Medina. The Prophet had been in Mecca for 13 years before migration). Why are the 273 years not included in the calculation?

4. The tradition quoted from Imam Sadiq (as) has no reference and my research for all that it is worth has been unable to locate the reference. Surely given that Nabil / Shoghi Effendi came at least 1,000 years after Imam Sadiq (as) surely they would have read the tradition someplace. Can you please throw some light on this or let me know the source from at least one Islamic source.

5. If one even accepts the tradition in Dawn Breakers, there seems to be an apparent contradiction in Iqan and Dawn Breakers about the Mahdi. The Iqan alludes that there was no Imam, while the Dawn Breakers says that there was an Imam who dissappear and who would "re-appear" in 1,260.

6. There are more than 1,000 traditions about the Mahdi, narrated continuously over the centuries. Will it then be correct to say that Islam was silent about the Mahdi?

7. If we can accept one tradition about the Mahdi (as in Dawn Breaker), why should one ignore the other 1,000 traditions about him?

8. Why did the understanding of the Bab change over time. Did the Bab change over time? Is there some prophecy which outlines this change in the Bab - I mean, is there some literature which says that the 12th Imam would be known as the gate and then as the 12th Imam.

9. As regards the verses, I am aware that they are from Quran. Can you throw some light on them from a Muslim exegesis.

Thank you for your patience. I request your attention to these points as well.

Regards
Imran

[arthra]

Imran,

We are Baha'is and not Muslims and we are not guided by the traditions that you obviously are guided by. You initially requested a response and seem to then ignore it...this is a symptom I think of your thinking and predisposition to be critical and condescending of our Faith and I think one could say a problem some Muslims have with our Faith that it is not taken seriously.

The website you represent is also extremely prejudiced against our Faith and not well informed or researched.

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Imran,
We are Baha'is and not Muslims and we are not guided by the traditions that you obviously are guided by. You initially requested a response and seem to then ignore it...this is a symptom I think of your thinking and predisposition to be critical and condescending of our Faith and I think one could say a problem some Muslims have with our Faith that it is not taken seriously.

The website you represent is also extremely prejudiced against our Faith and not well informed or researched.

- Art

Dear Art:

I have not ignored your reply. In fact I have taken it extremely seriously. My points reflect that. My web site seems to be the bone of contention and seems to come in the way of my seeking a response to the questions I pose.

You quote a verse of 1,000 years - I say very well and superb for having extracted one verse from 6,666 verses of the Quran. Now I ask you how is it calculated and relevant from the point of view of Islam and the Bahai Faith. And you tell me my web site is prejudiced and not informed! How is this reply related to an extremely simple question of how 1,000 years. I did not question your prejudice when you so liberally quoted a verse from the Quran as a proof for the Bahai Faith. Now when I ask, what I believe, is an extremely relevant question, you dont like it.

I am not guided solely by traditions. I am guided by the intellect which Allah gifted me and all individuals with. I am simply using it to seek answers to questions which arise in my mind and which I believe are very rational.

The Official Bahai Web site says, "Baha'u'llah emphasizes the fundamental obligation of human beings to acquire knowledge with their "own eyes and not through the eyes of others." One of the main sources of conflict in the world today is the fact that many people blindly and uncritically follow various traditions, movements, and opinions. God has given each human being a mind and the capacity to differentiate truth from falsehood. If individuals fail to use their reasoning capacities and choose instead to accept without question certain opinions and ideas, either out of admiration for or fear of those who hold them, then they are neglecting their basic moral responsibility as human beings."

I am only trying not to be blind in my prejudice (if I have a prejudice) against the Faith - I am trying to use, as Bahaullah said, "use the facility to differentiate between falsehood and truth". Also to "abstain from accepting without question certain opinions and ideas." so that I do not "neglect my basic moral responsibility as a human being."

So perhaps in seeking rational replies to my questions which because they are related to the question of Faith and therefore very close to my heart and hence important to me, I am more Bahai than most!

I seek your valuable response to the points which I raised in the previous post.

Regards
Imran

[arthra]

Just a note on the above...

These are issues of great importance to many Muslims and we Baha'is have our views on the subject...

No one has ever established the earthly existence of the Twelfth Imam as he was supposed to have been born and disappeared in secret...

Did speculation and prophecy develope around this personage? The answer is most certainly... The state of Shiah Islam was built on the supernatural existence of this Twelfth Imam and those four "gates" who came later claimed to offer continued guidance for awhile...

The Bab was believed to have fulfilled the prophecies...

Was Islam without guidance? In our view the Umayyad Caliphate and later rulers corrupted Islam.

Baha'is believe Imam Ali was the rightful appointed successor after the ascension of Prophet Muhammad.

Islam not unlike other religions has been riddled with sectarianism for centuries...

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Just a note on the above...
These are issues of great importance to many Muslims and we Baha'is have our views on the subject...

No one has ever established the earthly existence of the Twelfth Imam as he was supposed to have been born and disappeared in secret...

Did speculation and prophecy develope around this personage? The answer is most certainly... The state of Shiah Islam was built on the supernatural existence of this Twelfth Imam and those four "gates" who came later claimed to offer continued guidance for awhile...

The Bab was believed to have fulfilled the prophecies...

Was Islam without guidance? In our view the Umayyad Caliphate and later rulers corrupted Islam.

Baha'is believe Imam Ali was the rightful appointed successor after the ascension of Prophet Muhammad.

Islam not unlike other religions has been riddled with sectarianism for centuries...

- Art

I think you are missing the point. I keep on asking which prophecies did Bab fulfill.

My logic and the line of questioning is clear:

1. There are 12 Imams in Islam - prophecised by the Holy Prophets (pbuh). also testified by the Bab

2. These 12 Imams started from Imam Ali (as) upto Imam Hasan Askari (as). Prophecised by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and testified by Bab.

3. These was a son born to Imam Hasan Askari. Prophecised by the Holy Prophet (pbuh). Testified by thousands of traditions and more importantly by the Bab.

4. This Imam will have a long life and he will be in occultation (hidden from the people) for a long time. He will have 2 occultations - one much longer than the other. Prophecised by the Holy Prophet, testified by traditions and by Shaykh Ahmed Ahsai, Sayyed Kazim Rashty AND the Bab.

Will it then be right to say that there is speculation about the 12th Imam when there are thousands of reports even describing his looks and features? This is an element which I am not able to reconcile personally.

The Bahais have given me conflicting answers about the 12th Imam - MOhammed Ibnil Hasan (Mohammed, the son of Imam Hasan Askari (as).

- At places, the Bahais tell us that there was no son born to Imam Hasan Askari. So no 12th Imam. My question, was there a son born to him?

- Then, we are told that there was a son born to him, but he went into occultation and no one knows where he is

- Then we are told that Bab was the spiritual return of this 12th Imam - if there was no Imam and only gates were there after the 11th Imam Hasan Askari, then why is the Bab the "return" of the 12th Imam? By using the term "return", we imply that there was a 12th Imam who was born and present and yes, he dissappeared. Is that correct?

Just a friendly reminder, you have not informed me yet about the verse of 1,000 years of how the calculation came about and also if there is any verse from the Holy Prophet about the same.

Also, if this verse is about the Bab, then why did the Bab not speak about the 1,000 years? Did Bahaullah say anything about it?

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Dear Art;

Many thanks for your time to respond. My points:

1. If the 11th Imam dies in 260 AH and was not succeeded by another Imam immediately, who were the four deputies reporting to. Who appointed the four deputies - it cannot be the 11th Imam as the latter deputies were not even born at that time. Secondly, there is no indication that the 11th Imam appointed the deputies.

2. As regards the verse about 1,000 years is there some explanation by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imam (as) about the same.

3. Why is the calculation of the 1,000 years being done from the death of the 11th Imam. Is this verse refers to the term of Islam, revealed in the Quran, then Islam started 13 years prior to the Islamic calendar (the calender commenced at the migration of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) from Mecca to Medina. The Prophet had been in Mecca for 13 years before migration). Why are the 273 years not included in the calculation?

4. The tradition quoted from Imam Sadiq (as) has no reference and my research for all that it is worth has been unable to locate the reference. Surely given that Nabil / Shoghi Effendi came at least 1,000 years after Imam Sadiq (as) surely they would have read the tradition someplace. Can you please throw some light on this or let me know the source from at least one Islamic source.

5. If one even accepts the tradition in Dawn Breakers, there seems to be an apparent contradiction in Iqan and Dawn Breakers about the Mahdi. The Iqan alludes that there was no Imam, while the Dawn Breakers says that there was an Imam who dissappear and who would "re-appear" in 1,260.

6. There are more than 1,000 traditions about the Mahdi, narrated continuously over the centuries. Will it then be correct to say that Islam was silent about the Mahdi?

7. If we can accept one tradition about the Mahdi (as in Dawn Breaker), why should one ignore the other 1,000 traditions about him?

8. Why did the understanding of the Bab change over time. Did the Bab change over time? Is there some prophecy which outlines this change in the Bab - I mean, is there some literature which says that the 12th Imam would be known as the gate and then as the 12th Imam.

9. As regards the verses, I am aware that they are from Quran. Can you throw some light on them from a Muslim exegesis.

Thank you for your patience. I request your attention to these points as well.

Regards
Imran

May I have your kind attention and response to these points.

Regards
Imran

[arthra]

Imran,

See my note #14 above for the Baha'i response...

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Imran,

See my note #14 above for the Baha'i response...

- Art

Dear Art:

The points were in response to your note #14. I was seeking a response after that one.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[arthra]

If there are ambiguities in the prophecies they are I think rooted in the very nature of Shiah Islam... Once again I'll quote from an essay by Christopher Buck on the subject.

"Shi`ism identified its messianic figure, the Qa'im, as the occulted Twelfth Imam. But, historically, both Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá state that the Twelfth Imam never existed. Despite the historical improbability of a Twelfth Imam, the existence of traditions attesting his occultation and eventual return created a kind of messianic determinism, in which a body of speculation represented as Imami akhbar raised fantastic and thus unrealistic expectations about any future religious renewal. Thus, the Bab's identification with the Qa'im/Mahdi is purely formal. But the formality had to be taken with the utmost seriousness."

- Kitab-i-Iqan
by Christopher Buck
Published in Encyclopedia Iranica


I'll repeat my earlier statement above:

No one has ever established the earthly existence of the Twelfth Imam as he was supposed to have been born and disappeared in secret...

Did speculation and prophecy develope around this personage?

The answer is most certainly... The state of Shiah Islam was built on the supernatural existence of this Twelfth Imam and those four "gates" who came later claimed to offer continued guidance for awhile...

The Bab was believed to have fulfilled the prophecies...

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

If there are ambiguities in the prophecies they are I think rooted in the very nature of Shiah Islam... Once again I'll quote from an essay by Christopher Buck on the subject. "Shi`ism identified its messianic figure, the Qa'im, as the occulted Twelfth Imam. But, historically, both Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá state that the Twelfth Imam never existed. Despite the historical improbability of a Twelfth Imam, the existence of traditions attesting his occultation and eventual return created a kind of messianic determinism, in which a body of speculation represented as Imami akhbar raised fantastic and thus unrealistic expectations about any future religious renewal. Thus, the Bab's identification with the Qa'im/Mahdi is purely formal. But the formality had to be taken with the utmost seriousness."

- Kitab-i-Iqan
by Christopher Buck
Published in Encyclopedia Iranica

I'll repeat my earlier statement above:

No one has ever established the earthly existence of the Twelfth Imam as he was supposed to have been born and disappeared in secret...

Did speculation and prophecy develope around this personage?

The answer is most certainly... The state of Shiah Islam was built on the supernatural existence of this Twelfth Imam and those four "gates" who came later claimed to offer continued guidance for awhile...

The Bab was believed to have fulfilled the prophecies...

- Art

Dear Art:

Is Christopher Buck considered an authority on Islam or on the Mahdi? I would love to believe him, but I am yet to see any place where Bahaullah and Abdul Baha denied the birth of the 12th Imam. They may have voiced their concerns about his location, but his birth has been without any doubt.

Also, the fact that he makes out the concept of the 12th Imam to be a new one which is created by the Shiites. It is not true. Traditions about the 12th Imam exist from the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and even in books written before the birth of the 12th Imam.

nce again, I wish to draw your attention to the books and the writings of the Bab. When the Bab calls Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as the Mahdi, the Qaem, the Sahibuz Zaman, the Baqiyatullah, was he pleading with a non existent person? Please do let me know which books of the Bab are ok for reading so that I may read those.

Secondly, while it may not be relevant, Christopher's view is totally against 1,000's of traditions and even Bahai views on the subject which claim that the Bab was the return of the "spirit of the twelfth Imam". If there was no twelfth Imam, then whose spiritual return was the Bab?

Also, which prophecies...you keep on mentioning that Bab fulfilled the prophcies, but which ones?

Regards
Imran

[arthra]

Imran,

You asked about Christopher Buck and you'll note the articles cited are found in the Encyclopaedia Iranica. Anyone can check up on that project here

http://www.iranica.com/what_is_iranica/index.html

Christopher Buck is an academic with PHD and JD qualifications and he's published several books of interest to Baha'is and related studies..

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Imran,

You asked about Christopher Buck and you'll note the articles cited are found in the Encyclopaedia Iranica. Anyone can check up on that project here

http://www.iranica.com/what_is_iranica/index.html

Christopher Buck is an academic with PHD and JD qualifications and he's published several books of interest to Baha'is and related studies..

- Art

Many thanks for the clarification. However as you would have guessed, I will not take his words for granted just because he is an expert. Can we have the quotations of Bahaullah and Abdul Baha wherein they have denied the birth of the 12th Imam?

Incidentally, Christopher Buck views are even against the doctrines of Shaykh Ahmed Ahsai and Sayyed Kazim - both of whom were Shiites and are acknowledged by the Bahais as the forefunners of Babism.

Also, if you can share the list of Babi texts which are approved by the Bahais and which are not. I had requested if we can get a specific injuction from Bahaullah or Abdul Baha on the same. Or if there are "official" copies of Babi texts then I would appreciate it if you can share them with me. I will be happy to translate them into English for you.

I am particularly interested in Sahifae Adaliyah, Tafseere' Kausar, Dalaelus Sabah and Qayyamul Asma. All of these are available on the Internet if one makes a decent attempt to find them. I want to know if the texts available through h-net.org are considered reliable by the Bahais.

Regards
Imran

[arthra]

Well I think scholars are important as they represent a discipline that is checked and reviewed by their peers and when they publish articles it can be a rigorous process. People are always free of course to decide whether they accept something and for amny it's simply a matter of their faith.

But this matter of views of the Hidden Imam is not a simple matter I think... You mentioned Shaykh Ahmad and from what I gather he did not believe the Hidden Imam was a living physical person hiding somewhere on the earth but was rather in a world of archetypal images (the realm of Hurqalya) that required initiation.. so he had spiritualized this concept of the Hidden Imam.

Probably this is a bit arcane and requires some specialized knowledge to understand and I'm thinking of the translations and essays of Henry Corbin here... but most agree I think there was a messianic expectation going on in the early nineteenth century in Islam which was somewhat parallel to Christian groups expecting the Return of Christ.

- Art

[justice_9]

Dear Imran Shaykh,

I am willing to have an open-minded and friendly discussion. Please let me know where you want to start.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by justice_9

Dear Imran Shaykh,

I am willing to have an open-minded and friendly discussion. Please let me know where you want to start.

Hello Justice 9...

I don't recall meeting you ..... Welcome to the Baha'i section of CR!

Did you have some questions or issues you wanted to raise here?

- Art