Islam in the time of the advent of the Mahdi

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Bahais believe in Imam Ali being the rightful successor of the Prophet - Go and tell me where you can find the name of Imam Ali in the Quran.

How utterly ludicrous. How hair splitting. Imran, why don't you investigate the writings of Baha'u'llah. Why are you so set on this one topic. It must be difficult to get past your preconceived images of what will come. It is a shame, because you seem to be a heartfelt individual, looking for God/Allah and His mysteries. It is a shame that you have already determined you know all that there is to know.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Does it mean the Quran is silent about these issues? No. Quran claims that all knowledges are encompassed in it. Then where are the verses for the above? For these, one must refer to the "authorised" interpretators of the verses - the Holy Prophet and the Imams.

Hope I am clear.
Regards,

And the Quran does have all the knowledges to the time of it's writing. Are you suggesting that God, in His wisdom, gave us the Torah, the Gospels, and the Quran and then shut off any additional knowledge? Could it be possible that you have misread the intentions of God concerning the Quran and it being the "total" of all knowledge as the Christians mis-read the "Return of Christ" and what it meant and what to expect? This is interesting, because I am not a scholar, just a learner. I do not debate religion, but am willing to answer questions as well as ask them. I also am very interested in a persons spiritual journey.

Mick

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Mick

How utterly ludicrous. How hair splitting. Imran, why don't you investigate the writings of Baha'u'llah. Why are you so set on this one topic. It must be difficult to get past your preconceived images of what will come. It is a shame, because you seem to be a heartfelt individual, looking for God/Allah and His mysteries. It is a shame that you have already determined you know all that there is to know.

Why is it a ludicrious question? You very conveniently rejected my arguments about the concept of music in the Quran stating that it does not exist. Now when I turn back to you and ask you whether the name of Imam Ali is present in the Quran, you call it hair splitting?

The concept which I was trying to draw your attention towards is that it is not necessary that everything will be seen in the Quran as we see it. The Quran is much much deeper than we think. And that is why we are ordered to refer to the prophet and the Imams to understand it.

And the Quran does have all the knowledges to the time of it's writing. Are you suggesting that God, in His wisdom, gave us the Torah, the Gospels, and the Quran and then shut off any additional knowledge?
Mick

I leave that question to Allah to answer for it is Allah alone who revealed the Quran. Allah informed us that the Quran and the Prophet and the Imams will suffice the ummah till the day of judgement. If Allah says so, then so be it.

Regards,

[Popeyesays]

Judgement day was a day in Muharram, 1260 AH.

"He hath laid down the foundations of the lofty Citadel, He hath inaugurated the Cycle of Glory, He hath brought forth a new creation on this day that is clearly Judgement Day -- and still do the heedless stay fast in their drunken sleep.
The Bugle [1] hath sounded, the Trumpet [2] hath been blown, the Crier hath raised his call, and all upon the earth have swooned away -- but still do the dead, in the tombs of their bodies, sleep on.
[1 Qur'án 39:68; Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 133]
[2 Qur'án 74:8] 14
And the second clarion [1] hath sounded, there hath followed the second blast after the first,[2] and the dread woe hath come, and every nursing mother hath forgot the infant at her breast [3] -- yet still the people, confused and distracted, heed it not."
[1 Qur'án 39:68]
[2 Qur'án 79:6]
[3 Qur'án 22:2]
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 13)

"THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 78)

So there is no internal consistency here, Imran. The faith acknowledges Judgement Day as the time when the Qur'an would be fulfilled and now it is the time of the Bayan and the Aqdas.

[Seeker_of_truth]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I leave that question to Allah to answer for it is Allah alone who revealed the Quran. Allah informed us that the Quran and the Prophet and the Imams will suffice the ummah till the day of judgement. If Allah says so, then so be it.

Regards,

I believe that is the point that we Baha'is are trying to get across, the Day of Judgement has happened, up until that point as you said " the Prophet and the Imams suffice".

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

You are obviously not reading my posts. I gave the verses and the traditions about music and it being forbidden as per the Holy Prophet of Islam and the Holy Imams.

If you want to find the exact word - music in Quran, it may not be available. But the traditions (in the same post) explain which words in the Quran are referring to music - by name.

Muslims pray namaz 5 times a day in a particular fashion and have been doing so for 1,400 years. Do you deny the concept of namaz and its form in Islam? I should think not. Now go back and tell me if you can find where it is written in Quran to recite 2 units in the morning, 4 for the noon, 4 for the afternoon, 3 units for dusk and 4 units for night prayers.

Bahais believe in Imam Ali being the rightful successor of the Prophet - Go and tell me where you can find the name of Imam Ali in the Quran.

Does it mean the Quran is silent about these issues? No. Quran claims that all knowledges are encompassed in it. Then where are the verses for the above? For these, one must refer to the "authorised" interpretators of the verses - the Holy Prophet and the Imams.

Hope I am clear.
Regards,

Scott, I would take issue with a number of your comments in this thread regarding Islam but shall refrain as this is not an Islamic board.


as salaam aleykum brother Imranshaykh,

I do not wish to hijack a thread in the Baha’i faith board but I would be grateful if you could clarify a couple of things you have posted here.

You are correct the Quran does not mention Ali bin Talib. Now could you please quote for me the verse that states Abu Bakr Siddiq will be the successor of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) or indeed any relevant verse regarding Abu Bakr?

Please can you also quote the verses of the Quran that refer to the Mahdi.

You state that music is forbidden in Islam, can you then explain the following:-

Mustafa Sabri - Entitled A topic of dispute in Islam - music
Beyan-ul-Haq, issue: 63, year: 2, vol: 3, 1910 (A journal which used to be issued by the Islamic Scholars Society)
Mustafa Sabri was one of the top Ottoman scholars in the 20th century. He served as a shaikhulislam (Highest religious authority) in the OttomanState. He died in 1954 in Egypt.

Whether it is through natural/physiological means or instruments, or tunes, depending on the kind or the different ways, music may be forbidden or disliked or even allowed according to some Islamic religious edicts. However, it is also known that Islam avoids absolutely accepting or remaining indifferent to the issue of music. It is this latter fact, ie, a sort of position by Islam, of cautioning by not allowing music, or encouraging it without reservation. It is this position whose reason or essence we will be discussing.

He goes on to explain why he considers music to be a "useless activity" and speaks very badly about music but he does not at any time state it is forbidden.

Please never say of the Quran “it may not be available” (your comment re the word music) The Quran is very clear on what Allah forbids. It is not there, not a single verse that specifically forbids music.

Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution. Quran (31:6)

Please do not quote the verses and hadiths said to refer to the forbidding of music, I know them rather well, and this would certainly hijack the thread but please could you just comment on the above (I think we can agree that Beyan-ul-Haq can be relied upon as a knowledgeable Islamic reference).

From Ibn Hanbal; (I feel sure you recognise this as one of the 4 traditional schools)

Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us NEVER to write anything of his hadith," (sorry tried to post the arabic here but it doesn't work but am sure you know how to look this up).


Salaam

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

The event being referred to is the Day of Judgement and not the arrival of the Mahdi.

Hi, Imran!

The Baha'i scriptures make it clear that the Day of Resurrection (aka the Judgement Day) refers to the time when a new Divine Messenger appears on earth, so IOV these events are in fact equivalent.

Peace,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again, Postmaster!

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Baha’ism came out of the heart of Islam and mutation of ideology not found in any of the 3. Progressive revelation.

For the record, the correct term is "the Baha'i Faith."

"Baha'ism" is a malaprop.

Regards, :-)

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings redux!

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Can you give me a single example prior to the Bahai Faith where there was a volte face - I mean, any element of religion was highly condemned earler and was then recommended.

For example, music - highly condemned in Islam, but highly recommended in Bahai Faith

unveiling of women - highly condemned in Islam, but highly recommended in the Bahai Faith.

Please note, any element which was earlier FORBIDDEN and now ENCOURAGED.

While I wouldn't say "encouraged" as such, Jesus' abrogation of Jewish law (and also the Christian allowance of eating pork) are two clear examples!

Regards,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

[M]usic was condemned since the time of adam.

NONSENSE!

I refer you to both Psalm 96 and Psalm 98 in the Jewish scriptures, both of which begin,

"O sing unto the Lord a new song!"

Best,

Bruce

[Popeyesays]

Dear Muslim Woman,

Welcome to the Baha`i board. If you have questions please ask them. If you have a polite interjection, please make it. If you have an issue, please raise it.

It is hard to discuss the Baha`i Faith without referring to Islam, just as it is hard to discuss Christianity without discussing Judaism.

Imran does not seem to live here anymore.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Dear Muslim Woman,

Welcome to the Baha`i board. If you have questions please ask them. If you have a polite interjection, please make it. If you have an issue, please raise it.

It is hard to discuss the Baha`i Faith without referring to Islam, just as it is hard to discuss Christianity without discussing Judaism.

Imran does not seem to live here anymore.

as salaam aleykum Scott

My deepest apologies, what an awful way to introduce myself to the Baha'i board. I confess I was a little irked at a Muslim brothers attitude on your faiths board and it got the better of me. What I should have said to you is that I would not agree necessarliy with your opinions, however I would defend your right to your opinions and interpretations, even though I would wish to discuss them with you and offer my opinions. I hope you will accept my apology.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

NONSENSE!

I refer you to both Psalm 96 and Psalm 98 in the Jewish scriptures, both of which begin,

"O sing unto the Lord a new song!"

Best,

Bruce

as salaam aleykum Bruce

Neither is music universally condemned in Islam (see my above post for reference). Alhamdolillah.

Salaam

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

as salaam aleykum Scott

My deepest apologies, what an awful way to introduce myself to the Baha'i board. I confess I was a little irked at a Muslim brothers attitude on your faiths board and it got the better of me. What I should have said to you is that I would not agree necessarliy with your opinions, however I would defend your right to your opinions and interpretations, even though I would wish to discuss them with you and offer my opinions. I hope you will accept my apology.

Salaam

You are most hearilty welcome, dear lady. It is not necessary for you to agree with me on everything for us to be fellow creatures of God and enjoy each other's company. I only suggested not responding to Imran because he was twisting our own statements on another website to make his anti-Baha`i website arguments better. Of course, he was not really making those arguments better because his ears were never open to hear any dissenting opinion.

We all stand in servitude to God, and should celebrate that desire to serve more than we argue about the nuts and bolts of proper service.

Peace to you and yours, God is most Glorious,

Scott

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

as salaam aleykum Bruce

Neither is music universally condemned in Islam

Wa aleikum salaam! :-)

We agree about this.

And as Scott said, any further questions you may have are most welcome! :-)

Regards,

Bruce

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

You are most hearilty welcome, dear lady. It is not necessary for you to agree with me on everything for us to be fellow creatures of God and enjoy each other's company. I only suggested not responding to Imran because he was twisting our own statements on another website to make his anti-Baha`i website arguments better. Of course, he was not really making those arguments better because his ears were never open to hear any dissenting opinion.

We all stand in servitude to God, and should celebrate that desire to serve more than we argue about the nuts and bolts of proper service.

Peace to you and yours, God is most Glorious,

Scott

as salaam aleykum Scott & Bruce

Thankyou for your kind response. I replied to Imran in the hope that he would try to make his arguments with a fellow Muslim, I believe if you are going to discuss your faith you are obliged to do so respectfully and factually. I am confident in my love and servitude of Allah to accept all non-extreme faiths and their followers.

I will confess that until joining this forum I had not even heard of the Baha'i faith or their beliefs. I have been reading a little bit on websites but am still trying to get my head around it, so please bear with me if I ask what seem a silly question. Also please forgive me if I ever say anything that may be offensive to a Baha'i follower, it will be unintentional and due to my lack of knowledge of your faith.

My first question is regarding the Baha'u'llah. The Quran states at verse 33:40 "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." This translation is from Yusufali (Pickthall also refers to the Seal) but Shakir translates this verse as "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things". I understand that the Baha'u'llah said he was a new Prophet, so do followers of the Baha'i faith reject this verse of the Quran or interpret it differently?

Salaam