Islam on a collision course

[Mohsin]

Please arialmessanger tell me where does Islam tells you not to study, not to educate yourself? I gave you an example when the Muslims were in the 12th century. Yes, it is because we have deviated from the true knowledge of Islam that we are behind. I mean, the image given to the Muslims and islamic law is a very cruel one. This same law was present then, even in a more Islamic form then that of present today. There was peace, there was happiness. If a Muslim is tempted towards a free society and goes there, gets inspired and leaves his true teaching, it is his fault, not Islam's. Yes, Islam is practical, if you learn about it completely.
Why do you hold sympothy for a sinner? I mean I gave you a good example which was mentioned publically. If you believe in what your religion tells you, you would also come to know about your laws about such sins. That woman you talk about, she did a sin that she should not have. Islam gives strict punishments because it wants to establish law and order. Do not take me as a person who wants an era of iron fist or something. If a person does not wish to be punished, he should live by the law.
Again, you tell me, I want to go to paradise(heaven). I must follow the law that I have been put forward by our Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H). If someone ammends it, does the person think that he know more that Allah(SWT) and his Prophet(P.B.U.H) ? Again people fail to realize the teachings of Islam. There is a very famous incident about Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) giving a punishment of chopping off the hand of a woman for robbery who was actully from a rich tribe. The tribe requested one of the close followers of Islam to request the Prophet(P.B.U.H) and ask the punishment off or alter the punishment. The Prophet(P.B.U.H) got very unhappy and said that "If my own daughter would have been in this woman's place, I would have chopped off her hand as well."

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Why not? It is what I see of Islam. I don't see people carrying out peaceful protests. If I am not to judge from what I see, then am I to judge on what people want me to see? No thanks. I'll always keep an open mind on the subject, but at the same time, I won't deny the obvious.

True, but let's jump back to the 1980's - and the numerous newscasts showing black males involved in riots. It didn't matter whether it was protests in South Africa, or race riots in Britain - wherever you looked, the Black Male was violent and to be feared. I didn't see on the news any peaceful protests involving black males.

Point being, what we see on the media is always going to be the exceptional news, not the norm.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

Bible literal believing Christians truly believe God wrote the Bible and that the Bible tells everything needed to know about how to live a righteous life.

However, there is plenty of divergence from the "literalist fundamentalist" in Christianity.

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

Now the rank and file Muslims are holding the same nonsense of their Book. Please, social ideas from 500 B.C. or 1 A.D. or 7th century A.D. are all out of date with today's social realities.

The social ideas of the Quran are wide-ranging - access to education is one of the key "social ideas" - should Muslims therefore reject that as well?

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

For example, no Jew or Muslim can practice their religion that requires the murder of adulteresses in any modern liberal democracy without facing prison.

Indeed, and so should be the case. And the vast majority of Muslims living under democracy do indeed accept Western Law.

Although Mohsin tries to justify certain aspects of "law" in Islam, from what I've seen the interpretation of law is a rather complex affair, and I'm certainly under the impression that this differs widely across the Muslim world.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Muslim world is also living under brutal dictatorships, who IMO use violence as a way of holding onto power first, rather than as an observation of any kind of "pan-Islamic law".

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

Time to wake up! and smell the roses and stop being led around by fear of God which has come to stand for fear of armed and dangerous men.

Et tu, arielmessenger - for that is not the God of Islam. Have you read the Quran?

[samabudhi]

Also, concider this, how can a car run with one tyre from a bike and one from a truck, I mean one goes to pray in a Masjid, other in a temple. One believe in something and the other in something else. How will they spend their life together?

In tolerance and respect for each other's own views. I thought women weren't allowed in Mosques anyway!?
The problem with this mode of thinking is that it spills into everything else Muslims do. They cannot comprehend working together with someone who is different. This is prejudice...emphasis emphasis. So how is it that you think the West and the Middle East can get on without them being the same? It's not going to happen, and if Islam can't show a little more tolerance to everyone else, then it's going be the one who suffers.

Why do you hold sympothy for a sinner?

Because this is compassion. Something which I feel safe to say, does not exist in Islam.

True, but let's jump back to the 1980's - and the numerous newscasts showing black males involved in riots. It didn't matter whether it was protests in South Africa, or race riots in Britain - wherever you looked, the Black Male was violent and to be feared. I didn't see on the news any peaceful protests involving black males.

What happened in South Africa was a cut and dry case of prejudicial suppresion by a bunch of nuts. There's no question who was in the wrong. It's a different story with the Middle East and the West as I think both sides are to blame. There wasn't even the question of 'peace talks' or any compromises by the Nationalist government. A similar case was the Native Americans. Total annihilation. Very sad.

Time to wake up! and smell the roses and stop being led around by fear of God which has come to stand for fear of armed and dangerous men.

Et tu, arielmessenger - for that is not the God of Islam. Have you read the Quran?

I have and all I see is 'fear God' written about a thousand times. Having my molars removed was a less painful process than reading this book.

[Mohsin]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

The problem with this mode of thinking is that it spills into everything else Muslims do. They cannot comprehend working together with someone who is different. This is prejudice...emphasis emphasis. So how is it that you think the West and the Middle East can get on without them being the same? It's not going to happen, and if Islam can't show a little more tolerance to everyone else, then it's going be the one who suffers.

The question was on weddings between non-Muslims and Muslims and this cannot happen. To us marrige is an important commitment, one has to stay together and help eachother e.t.c. It is only for marrige. Working with non-Muslims has got no problem until or unless it a wrong job, e.g. working in bars and other things which are declaider unlawful in Islam. As I said, tolerance is important, and it is good as long as both sides are working together. The best examples of tolerace came from the earlier Muslims. People of many religions lived together in the Middle East and things were going fine. You know when things got out of hand.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Because this is compassion. Something which I feel safe to say, does not exist in Islam.

What if the same sinner robbed you, raped or killed someone close to you? Will you show the same compassion? Islamic law also have rights for the prisoners. The way they are treated today in the world are againt not only Islamic laws, but all international laws. This unlawful act is carried out by the Muslims as well.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

I have and all I see is 'fear God' written about a thousand times. Having my molars removed was a less painful process than reading this book.

You are commited towards disagreeing with Islam. You miss out the real message and keep in mind what you dislike. It is about obediance to God. Many times it is mentioned 'In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful'. You follow what Allah commands and you will be recieving rewards. You go against, you will suffer.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

apologies for the thread derail....


Samabudhi, not all American Indians were wiped out... though a great many were.

in fact.. there is a revivial of the traditions and culture of many of the native tribes ongoing right now... which, in my view, is a wonderful thing.

you can visit this site for more information on AIM, American Indian Movement:
http://www.aimovement.org/

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

What happened in South Africa was a cut and dry case of prejudicial suppresion by a bunch of nuts. There's no question who was in the wrong. It's a different story with the Middle East and the West as I think both sides are to blame. There wasn't even the question of 'peace talks' or any compromises by the Nationalist government. A similar case was the Native Americans. Total annihilation. Very sad.

What I meant, though, was the issue of media presentation. There is a muslim community not far from where I live - there is a large number of muslims at the school my eldest daughter goes to. Perhaps surprisingly, though, none of the Muslim parents has appeared with an AK-47, nor taken a knife to my head, or looked at me in even a remotely angry way. In fact, these Muslims seem rather plain and normal. In fact, I tend to bump into one on the way home quite regularly - he is from Libya (a terrorist nation, apparently) yet he and his family seem rather friendly, and have certainly not tried to threaten or kill me.

Point being, the violent "Islamic fundamentalist" is a media steretype for feat and hate, just as the black male was in the 1980's.

[arielmessenger]

There is a huge contradiction in Islam between surrender to a merciful God and the cruel punishments the Islamic God informed Mohammad were justified.

John 8:3
"Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to him a woman caught in adultery. And when they has set her in the midst, they said to him, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do you say?'
This they said, testing him, that they might have something of which to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with his finger, as though he did not hear.

So when they continued asking him, he raised himself up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone.' And again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convinced by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left standing in the midst. When Jesus raised himself up and saw no one but the woman, he said to her, 'Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?' She said, 'No one, Lord.' And Jesus said to her, 'Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.'"

This is why Islam will never, ever, replace true Christianity. Mohammad's Islam is without the mercy it is supposed to stand for.

[I, Brian]

Please check your Private Message Box, arielmessenger.

[samabudhi]

Please check your Private Message Box, arielmessenger.

Hee hee. Someone's in trouble!

The question was on weddings between non-Muslims and Muslims and this cannot happen. To us marrige is an important commitment, one has to stay together and help eachother e.t.c. It is only for marrige.

Arrrgh. One more dogmatic post and I'll have to sign out for good. It's gets quite tiring after a while.
Please explain yourself. You see, what you don't understand it that you can't split up the way you act in one place and the way you act in another.
You can't spend all day as a lieutenant shouting at conscripts and not expect it to overflow into how you treat your children. This simplistic view on human behaviour is way behind current understanding. There is a saying which I think is particularly pertinent but which I hope you won't take the wrong way: 'Get real.'

People of many religions lived together in the Middle East and things were going fine.

Yes I know what living together with Muslims is all about. They stick to their own. They give about an inch, but they're not prepared to stick up for anyone but their own kind. Show me where Muslims protest against ill-treatment of other groups of people. Doesn't happen.

What if the same sinner robbed you, raped or killed someone close to you? Will you show the same compassion?

You asked the wrong person. It's because compassion is never spoken of in Islam that you don't understand it.

You follow what Allah commands and you will be recieving rewards. You go against, you will suffer.

Of course it's difficult to be compassionate when one is laughing so much.
Who are the people who suffer most in this world. The Muslims.

[Mohsin]

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

There is a huge contradiction in Islam between surrender to a merciful God and the cruel punishments the Islamic God informed Mohammad were justified.

John 8:3
"Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to him a woman caught in adultery. And when they has set her in the midst, they said to him, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do you say?'
This they said, testing him, that they might have something of which to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with his finger, as though he did not hear.

So when they continued asking him, he raised himself up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone.' And again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convinced by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left standing in the midst. When Jesus raised himself up and saw no one but the woman, he said to her, 'Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?' She said, 'No one, Lord.' And Jesus said to her, 'Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.'"

This is why Islam will never, ever, replace true Christianity. Mohammad's Islam is without the mercy it is supposed to stand for.

Firstly, you should know what Islamic law completely says. You cannot just go ahead and punish someone, neither can a person give a punishment without proving it in a court. In Islam, even if you accuse a woman, say her a bad name, she has a right to get the case in court and if the person cannot bring four witnesses, he recieves eighty lashes. This is also for those who lie when they are acting as witnesses in courts.
_________________

Accord­ing to Surah Nur, Ch.24, Verse No.4, it is said ‘If any of you put a charge against the chastity of a woman, produce 4 witnesses, and if they falter, flog them with 80 stripes'.
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If you allow me to compare the rights given to women in Islam and the Christianity, I will inshAllah(by the will of Allah) be able be clerify many doubts. Also keep this in mind that the women are more towards accepting Islam and accept Islam earlier then men. Can you give me an example of what do Christianity say about punishment for adultry?
Also, do not call God as Islamic God, we believe in the same one God as you do, as Jesus(P.B.U.H) did, as Moses (P.B.U.H) did, as Ibrahim(P.B.U.H) did and every earlier prophet did, but we do not believe Jesus(P.B.U.H) as god.
I hope no reader is offended.

[samabudhi]

I just realised that the last line of my last post is positioned a bit too closely to the second last line of my last post.
I am laughing at the Schwartzenegger line, "You go against, you will suffer," not that Muslims are suffering.

Apologies.

[Mohsin]

You will come to know about it on the day of judgement.
Do you people actully believe in it (judgement day, life after death)? I mean, the Creater has created us, gifted us, asks for obediance but you show none. What will be the result of this in the afterlife? By the way, as I said, Muslims are behind because they are deviating away from their religion.

[samabudhi]

Lucky me, I don't.

[Mohsin]

Yeah right, an evolutionest!!!