Islam on a collision course - Page 3

Vajradhara · 05-14-2004, 07:59 PM

Salaam Moshin,

no, i don't believe in a "judgement day" or anything like that. which, of course, is a problem from the Muslim perspective.

i know that, in the Islamic tradition, it is held that Allah (SWT) will judge each person according to their deeds... which, for me, is quite excellent. no worries therein. however... to be assured of a fair judgement, one must believe in a judgement day.. though not, necessarily, in Allah (SWT) or Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

this has changed my view of the Islam such that i used to consider it in a more favorable light than Christianity and Judaism, this is no longer the case.

i would imagine that most Buddhists have little issue with the concept of evolution.. in fact, i would venture that most Buddhist agree with the evolutionary theory.

arielmessenger · 05-15-2004, 08:36 PM

Mohsin,

"Can you give me an example of what do Christianity say about punishment for adultry?
Also, do not call God as Islamic God, we believe in the same one God as you do, as Jesus(P.B.U.H) did, as Moses (P.B.U.H) did, as Ibrahim(P.B.U.H) did and every earlier prophet did, but we do not believe Jesus(P.B.U.H) as god.
I hope no reader is offended."

Mohsin, I gave you the Christian example of what Christianity says about adultery. Didn't you read it when you included it in your response? In a real way, that particular quote of Jesus marks the major difference between our religions--you see, Christianity's major spiritual truth of God is Forgiveness of sins, not punishment for breaking religious rules. How often is a Christian required to forgive a person? Once, twice? Try seventy times seven. That's the point. Who among us is without sin? If Mohammad were alive and a US citizen doing his historical thing he would be branded a criminal on several different charges all of which involve crimes of violence.

It is my spiritual understanding that no man who has killed men is capable of founding a true merciful religion of God. That applies to "Moses", Paul and Mohammad. Only Yeshu-Jesus is without murder on his resume. As for the Islamic God, it shares with the tribal god of Israel too many war god attributes for me to be able to see God Most High in it as Islam stands from Mohammad's vision. I would urge you to do some investigation of the history of the God of Israel in which you will discover that that god never was God Most High but a lower tribal war god which priests and scribes of Judah returning from their Babylonian exile, falsely elevated to God Most High's position. Two gods in other words and one stands for wisdom and compassion and the other stands for strict obedience to commands. EL Elyon, God Most High over all the Near Eastern region, was never His son, Yahweh, tribal god of the Israelites yet the Jews fooled us all into thinking he was. Luckily, God put the archeologists and historians on the trail of truth and the ancient Canaanite texts tell a different story as does careful reading of the Bible accounts. As a Gnostic Christian, I know who is God Most High as did the Gnostic Christian John the author of the Fourth Gospel. Unfortunately, Mohammad based his teachings on the god of the Jews as did Paul so all three Abrahamic faiths are following a lower war god instead of knowing God Most High. That is why there is so much contradiction in all three traditional faiths re God's mercy vs. God's punishment of sin. Mercy and punishment do not coexist except in schizophrenic imbalance which is exactly how Abrahamic religionists have behaved through the centuries of religious practice--the result: war after war after war and no interfaith harmony at all..

BTW, my firm convictions seem to offend our appointed censor here so if you don't see any more postings from Arielmessenger you will know why. Interfaith discussions should be open forums but my experience has been that self-appointed censors often try to stop any discussion that involves truthful confrontation of differences in belief and why they are different.

I, Brian · 05-15-2004, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

BTW, my firm convictions seem to offend our appointed censor here so if you don't see any more postings from Arielmessenger you will know why. Interfaith discussions should be open forums but my experience has been that self-appointed censors often try to stop any discussion that involves truthful confrontation of differences in belief and why they are different.

It is not convictions that offend, but attitude. I should remind people that *no one* is banned here for their religious beliefs - all I ask for is civility.

What is a shame is when people walk into places like this and insist on them being run on their own terms. I have absolutely no time for prima donnas who cannot even answer a polite PM, without kicking up in hysteria to insist on their right to post what they want - and how they want - and sod the rest of us.

samabudhi · 05-16-2004, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

BTW, my firm convictions seem to offend our appointed censor here so if you don't see any more postings from Arielmessenger you will know why. Interfaith discussions should be open forums but my experience has been that self-appointed censors often try to stop any discussion that involves truthful confrontation of differences in belief and why they are different.

I have joined 3 different forums over the past couple of months, including this one. What I have found is that in each case I started off annoying the moderators and getting into tiffs with forum members.
I see the same behaviour with newbies all the time, including yourself.

The reason for this is that people look at the Internet and forums as an impersonal space where it doesn't matter what, or at least how they write, since they'll never have to face the people they meet on the forum. It's too easy just to leave and never come back. You're not held accountable for your statements. When you're dealing with people in the flesh, it's a different story. I wouldn't have said half the things I had said if that had been the case.
Even messenger services are more personal than forums. Can you imagine having a conversation on Messenger with Mohsin? It's a bit more real than a forum isn't it?

The thing is that people who have been writing to this forum for some time have made it their own. It's part of them. It's like their second home where they get to meet their friends and where they know what to expect. Then some young hooligan barges in and starts shouting at everyone. When you enter a stranger's house, what do you usually do? You're humble and reserved right? It should be the same in forums.

However, as you get to know us you'll build up relationships and eventually feel obliged to be polite. Hope this hasn't put you off. Looking forward to your future contributions.

samabudhi · 05-16-2004, 06:02 AM

http://www.secularislam.org/

I thought this link was applicable to the thread, and may just help those who wish to jettison before the collision.

kkawohl · 05-16-2004, 08:50 AM

Some people derive satisfaction from worshiping a deity. They believe that their prayers are heard and answered. It is illogical for a deity to require worship. The existence of a deity or spiritual realm and its function is imperceivable to the mind but has at times been revealed to the human spirit. Pure logic constitutes an axiom consisting of pure truth and experience, possible in the spiritual but not in the physical realm or dimension. If humanity would ever accept a completely logical deity called God, Allah, etc., many borders between opposing religious factions would be eliminated and peace thereafter could be a reality.

If the medieval practices and the medieval beliefs of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that are based on superstitions were eliminated, then we could start building a rational and logical belief system that is based on truth and an understanding of spirituality. This is the value of truthfulness and rationality.
Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong. Spiritual interaction is only possible between spirits. Claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not truths.

Kurt

samabudhi · 05-19-2004, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkawohl

It is illogical for a deity to require worship.

A most interesting point.
If God is self-supporting, invunerable, all powerful, then why does he need anything from us. Why would he sentence me to hell, an eternity of suffering, if I don't submit to him. I've done him no wrong? Puts me here, puts irreconcilable logical barriers to worshipping him, and then punishes me for it. Thanks, but no thanks.

kkawohl · 05-19-2004, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samabudhi

A most interesting point.
If God is self-supporting, invunerable, all powerful, then why does he need anything from us. Why would he sentence me to hell, an eternity of suffering, if I don't submit to him. I've done him no wrong? Puts me here, puts irreconcilable logical barriers to worshipping him, and then punishes me for it. Thanks, but no thanks.

God's powers are limited to the spiritual dimension. God needs nothing from us & will NOT sentence anyone to hell or an eternity of suffering. No one needs to submit, pray to or believe in God. Righteous living will reap its rewards. Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled God for the past several millennia as one who interferes with the natural forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who disobey his bidding. The spiritual existence of this deity, if one decides to accept this premise, could not have changed with the times but the perception of who or what this deity is should change as societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. God is not encumbered by human attributes and needs or desires to be worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else that mankind has to offer. It is also the human characteristics and attributes that exercise upon others: power, control, dominance, destruction, punishment, revenge, and judgment.

The destruction of civilizations, most sufferings and premature deaths are due to human frailties, stupidity or imperfections and are not God's doings. God, exists in a spiritual realm and never has and never will interfere with anything on earth or in the universe.

Please see my spiritual experience site below my signature.

Namaste,
Kurt

I, Brian · 05-19-2004, 08:39 PM

On the comment of worship - I am reminded how the Buddhists make a point that they are not worshipping the statue of the Buddha, but instead using it as a tool to focus on that good that they should do, and are, and yet will be. (Or words to that effect

).

I should recommend that people consider that this itself is the heart of worship, and is equally applicable to people of other faiths.

Sacredstar · 11-28-2004, 06:09 PM

Dear All

Just a few other views, I seemed to have spent months defending Muslim people. I am truly blessed to have Muslim friends some from the middle/far east and one an Italian that converted after spending many year's in Arab countries. I have to say from personal experience they are the most humble, peaceful and compassionate people that I know.

I was under the impression that 'Islam' actually means 'surrender' and I assumed this meant surrender to GOD.

I feel that this is not about religion but about politics and bigger agenda's. It will be interesting to see what happens when Stanley Hilton's $7 million class action law suit against Bush, for creating 9/11 brings out into the open. He says he has evidence that Bin Laden has been dead for six years. I am one that never bought into the official story of 9/11 but that is another discussion.

I could be totally off track, but my sense is that Islam is not wishing to convert others, the root cause as I see it is they do not wish to be westernised (they have witnessed how our society has gone) hence the battle to retain cultural freedom. But yet how much longer can they stop their young? My brother tells me that Asian children and Muslims are already hitting the nightclubs dressed to seduce!

My girlfriend a Muslim doctor tells me since 9/11 her religion is being anniliated and at the same time, her family and friends around the world are moving into spirituality like herself. Many seem to be getting into spirituality, truly finding themselves and getting into 'Conversations with GOD' books and direct communion with GOD. This direct communion is creating many more questions to do with the dogma of their faith, so from where I am sitting many in the West are becoming very liberal, one even having an affair with a married man and when I asked her what about GOD she replied, GOD most merciful, most compassionate does not judge!

On top of that their own prophet said, that they would turn to Jesus Christ at the second coming, so even their own religion if it is true, to its prophet knows that Islam, in the long term will not remain or stay the same. How can it? If they are to embrace Jesus Christ as there own!

As far as China is concerned, I feel there could be a showdown between the US and China over oi, but pleased to see that Europe is now uniting as a super power once again. It seems Europe has decided that we cannot allow the US to control and dominate world events.

I must admit my main concern at the moment is the US, if we look through history, every great nation has destroyed itself with its own hand. It is very hard to sit here and watch this happen.

So I guess it is watch this space.........

Sacredstar

mirrorinthefog · 11-30-2004, 07:00 AM

Interesting board...
A lot of what I wanted to say has already been said so I'll try to keep it short.
In my humble opinion, although Islam does require adherence to the Qur'an and (arguably) the Sunnah (the fine print of which I do not personally agree with-as in the laws concerning adultery, when interpreted literally and applied to the modern world) it also encourages some measure of independant thought. To me, this means that faith should not be a blind adherence to dogmatic laws, but a path followed willfully, mindfully, and with respect for oneself and for others, with the idea that there is always room for further development. Religion, like man, is a dynamic institution. Unfortunately, Muslims and Christians alike are too busy damning each other to Hell for not obeying *insert dramatic music here* God's commands, or their perceptions of interpretations, of ideas of someone's slant on what might or might not be God's commands.
And for those of you who believe in a judging God, who places people neatly into two categories (good-bad, heavenbound-hellbound) I would suggest that the arguement is a moot point, because it's not up to any mortal to decide who will "suffer" what and who won't. All three Abrahamic faiths, as far as I know, tells us that judging others is wrong. Let God decide who goes into what category, if that is what you wish to believe, and let us acknowledge that there may be more than one way to reach Higher Consciousness.