Israel. Super Power?

[Nick_A]

BB

i'm not shouting this down at all. the question asked was imprecise as well as couched in language and terminology strongly reminiscent of both conspiracy theorists and inquisitors. i simply unpacked some of the questions that would need to be answered in order for the original question to make any sense. so far, nobody has seen fit to do so. this i find instructive.

Isn't that the same logic used by anyone that has an axe to grind? As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I would suggest much of the world's trouble comes primarily from people reading into things that just aren't there. You cannot blame this on another; it is our fault.

[TheKhan]

Israel is not a super power.
A superpower is a nation, that if the country disappeared a lot of nations would feel it.
A superpower can also take on the entire world at once in war and possibly win. (Therefore China is on its way to being a superpower but is not yet)

America should be the last superpower, and we do not need superpowers if China wasn`t striving to become one militarily. This is a major point I`d like to make.

Anyways, I wish that Israel return the favor (I mean this in a sarcastic sense), and become the first country to have a 100% Hydrogen-based economy.

[c0de]

Hey TK

Originally Posted by TheKhan

A superpower can also take on the entire world at once in war and possibly win. (Therefore China is on its way to being a superpower but is not yet)

America should be the last superpower, and we do not need superpowers if China wasn`t striving to become one militarily. This is a major point I`d like to make.

This idea, that China is the next superpower, or is striving to become one,
is actually a myth. China is not in any position economically or militarily to
challenge even Japan, let alone the US. At this point Japan can sink every
vessel in the PLN and the Chinese know this very well. But before we even
consider the military dimension you have to consider the economy and
demography of China. China will have one of the oldest populations in the world (mainly because of the one-child policy) and its manufacturing sector
is totally dependent on the US. So economically and demographically, it is
in no position to enter the race at this point.

Militarily speaking, it is half a century behind the US in terms of
R&D of weapon's technology. Most of its tech comes from Russia, which is
itself always lagging behind the US. The recent build up of capability is only
in response to the Taiwan situation and the pressure in Central Asia. The
only reason China is cited as a source of concern is because they need
to justify spending trillions of dollars every decade on the military-industrial
complex.

This is not to say that any confrontation between China and the US is out
of the question. The two theaters in which the US and Chinese forces can
come into contact are Taiwan and Central Asia. But both of these
scenarios are more likely to be part of a global war rather then just a
US vs China regional war. For that reason, you will need to satisfy a whole
long list of conditions before we reach a point where these two will engage
each other.

[dauer]

Anyways, I wish that Israel return the favor (I mean this in a sarcastic sense), and become the first country to have a 100% Hydrogen-based economy.

I don't quite understand what this means, but there is a very interesting article from a Wired or two ago about the possibility they'll be one of the first to develop an infrastructure that supports electric cars under a new model that mirrors cell phone coverage in some ways. This is the company working at making that happen:

Better Place

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by c0de

This idea, that China is the next superpower, or is striving to become one, is actually a myth.

For all our sake I hope you are right. But I heard that current China has some system of thinking that clearly makes it obvious that they want to take over the world. Did you hear recently that a high-ranking US officer was offered to split the world in two, between China and the US, from a high-ranking Chinese military officer? Thats how off mark they are.

Economy-wise, they are just right on track to become something of a super economy.

And what does it take to be a top super power militarily? I`m not a military expert, but if missiles where rendered useless, and satellites could be shot down, I think even the US defenses would be paralyzed, if someone got that technology before the US did. In that sense, I think its always a close race. The Germans in WII were 2 weeks behind the US in the A. Bomb making, the Japanese were a month behind. May I add that the US was 5 years behind the Germans when they started the Manhattan project, it was really a close one.

And with new technology coming up that can be transferred to weapons, I`d have to say, it is anyones game again. And to say that the US is doing OK, which I know how and why, with all due respect I cannot begin to stress enough that the US needs to get on their toes.

In my case especially I`d feel safer, if Japan went 100% military (developing tiny superbots, unmanned weapons etc..) on this, but by the time that happens it will probably be too late, and I just can`t trust the US to outcompete China in new weapons development this time, looking at Radioshack etc.. Its probably just some simple breakthrough, that could annialate any military in my view.

Getting back to Israel, as I stated earlier, I meant to say if Israel becomes a good and successful pioneer in 100% hydrogen-based economy, I could see them as a super power.

But currently there is no choice available for me to vote on.. I`d need to vote on Israel could be a super power but currently is not on a path to become one yet.

[c0de]

Originally Posted by TheKhan

And what does it take to be a top super power militarily? I`m not a military expert, but if missiles where rendered useless, and satellites could be shot down, I think even the US defenses would be paralyzed, if someone got that technology before the US did. In that sense, I think its always a close race. The Germans in WII were 2 weeks behind the US in the A. Bomb making, the Japanese were a month behind. May I add that the US was 5 years behind the Germans when they started the Manhattan project, it was really a close one.


And with new technology coming up that can be transferred to weapons, I`d have to say, it is anyones game again. And to say that the US is doing OK, which I know how and why, with all due respect I cannot begin to stress enough that the US needs to get on their toes.

Consider the following: If warfare moves to the arena of Space, then
the US will have a clear advantage to begin with as the US is the only
nation capable of replenishing its satellite assets. Because if you take out
a single American satellite, America will take out all of yours (which it
might anyway). If it comes to that, the damage will only be limited
and in the long run will ensure American supremacy in space. As the US
will replenish its network and make sure you don't replenish yours.

But lets think about what damage will be inflicted on the US forces if its
SATT network goes down. The idea that the entire US arsenal would simply
fail and collapse is not really based in a proper assessment of American
capabilities. Consider for a moment the redundancy of their C4I network.
The huge fleet of Command and Control aircraft, like the E-3, JSTARS,
E-2Cs, all have one purpose, to keep everything connected. Satellites are
just one part of this equation. No other nation has such a developed C4I
network. So if you take out the satellites, it will make a difference,
but it wouldn't immobilize them. And you also have to consider that the US
knows that this threat exists, it might know where this threat is located. It is
very possible that it will reach and take out the threat before it even has
a chance to be used against it. I used to think America's sattellite
network was its achilles heel too, but I used to think a lot of things....
I mean think about it, you dont really believe any military will make
all of its capabilities dependent on a single method of communication do
you?

Also, the idea that the rest of the world is only lagging behind the US by
a small margin when it comes to research and development is a complete
fantasy, mostly generated by Russia. Even the Europeans which are ahead
of the Russians are not even close the US. Just take the example of their
anti-ship missiles, the Russian Moskit, and Brahmos. Everyone was so
exited about these threats when they came out, especially when the
Sunburn was delivered to Iran. You think its a coincidence that the US
fielded the ESSM and RAM so quickly and even equipped allied countries
with these defensive systems right after the Moskit was cited as a threat?
They were prepared and waiting. Besides, all such missiles are a hollow
threat to begin with considering their limited range. What vessel do you
think will be allowed to come as close as 50 nautical miles to launch these
missiles at any allied ship in a theater of operations?

Also, take the F-22 for example. No other aircraft comes anywhere close in
any way. As the Russians keep releasing footage of the Sukhoi Flanker
doing back flips at air shows, the F-22 is getting ready to be shipped to
Japan probably within 2 years after being inducted in the USAF. From the
point of view of military tactics.... the F-22.... is just... I mean, its hard to
communicate exactly how beautiful its capabilities are. People just dont
understand what this beast can do. I mean, to call it a "fighter plane" is not
even technically right. Its avionics suite makes it more capable in the arena
of Electronic Warfare and Reconnaissance then most dedicated ELINT and
EW aircraft in operation today. Combine this with its ability to cruise at
supersonic speeds for extended periods of time, and you can't even imagine
what such an asset means for any military.

So basically TK, the only thing which could defeat the US and its allies
is a miracle from God. Besides, there really is no reason to even pick
sides in this fight... this isn't a good guy vs bad guy type of a brawl.

Originally Posted by TheKhan

For all our sake I hope you are right. But I heard that current China has some system of thinking that clearly makes it obvious that they want to take over the world. Did you hear recently that a high-ranking US officer was offered to split the world in two, between China and the US, from a high-ranking Chinese military officer? Thats how off mark they are.

North Koreans have been challenging the whole world to such bouts
for half a century while at the same time accepting hand outs to feed
their starving public... What must be understood however is that such
an illusion of rivalry with the US is also in the interest of the Chinese
government. They are part of the same network and their elites stand
to profit just anyone else from spending on their military.

Economy-wise, they are just right on track to become something of a super economy.

I think that point is very debatable... but I hate discussing economics.

In my case especially I`d feel safer, if Japan went 100% military (developing tiny superbots, unmanned weapons etc..) on this, but by the time that happens it will probably be too late,

Actually, that moment is probably not that far off.
They are going to launch their first aircraft carrier in March '09...
Its a helicopter carrier for now but can easily be modified to
field JSFs in the future.

and I just can`t trust the US to outcompete China in new weapons development this time, looking at Radioshack etc.. Its probably just some simple breakthrough, that could annialate any military in my view.

Your looking at the wrong store... the center piece of all civilian and
military technology is M.I.T. Paid for by the US taxpayer... All the
tech you see in the private sector was actually developed 20
years ago...

..... if Israel becomes a good and successful pioneer in 100% hydrogen-based economy, I could see them as a super power.

Other then decreasing its dependence on oil, it wouldnt do much.

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by dauer

I don't quite understand what this means..

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that enemies of the free world have a death grip on petrol and gas. They`ve clearly been working on this for a decade. And seem to want to use that as some leverage to get their way on some oppressing issues that will continue to happen in the future.

And it does seem like we will continue to find ourselves in major conflict until we free ourselves from a petrol-based economy.

While funding for Israel may be partially tied in with oil interests in the US, so opposition would be expected, I think Israel would be a good candidate to become a hydrogen-based economy for other countries to follow, seems Israel is compact and organized enough to make this happen. Depending on the degree of pioneering, to impact the world, that might be a step towards being viewed as a super power.

And I think Americans will benefit in the sense that there will be less wars if someone were to show us how to build an economy based on efficiently produced hydrogen.

In this sense if Israel pioneers an alternative to petrol, I think this would be returning Americans a favor(tax dollars), put a major dent on some of their enemies pocket money, and even put a major dent on the enemies of the United States` pocket money.

I`m sure many would disagree. I admit this is wishful and simple thinking.

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by c0de

the center piece of all civilian and military technology is M.I.T. Paid for by the US taxpayer... All the tech you see in the private sector was actually developed 20 years ago...

OK, don`t want to get into a major debate. You`ve got me partially convinced. 2 points I`d like to make.

The guys in China who are doing the developing are generations of M.I.T. graduates. Does that scare you a bit now?

And part of the reason I am worried is the kind of views similar to yours which is probably how the US military sees itself too. It will not work in the US` favor, in the sense that that kind of thinking clouds judgement and possibly may make someone miss something critical.

TK

[c0de]

Originally Posted by TheKhan

The guys in China who are doing the developing are generations of M.I.T. graduates. Does that scare you a bit now?

Remember that much of the strategic military tech post WWII was
developed by German scientists working in the US and the Soviet Union.
Just because these grads are Chinese it doesn't mean they are spies.
Besides, most of those grads wont ever have security clearance
to work on any sensitive projects anyway. And most of them will end up
living and working in America, as loyal citizens.

And part of the reason I am worried is the kind of views similar to yours which is probably how the US military sees itself too. It will not work in the US` favor, in the sense that that kind of thinking clouds judgement and possibly may make someone miss something critical.

And what worries me is these kind of views of yours:

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that enemies of the free world have a death grip on petrol and gas.

There is no "free world" and there are no "enemies"...
There is just the system... And everyone is a node.

[TheKhan]

"And most of them will end up living and working in America, as loyal citizens. "

No, most of them return to China. They really love their country surprisingly.

If the US was 50 years ahead in R&D, we`d be flying in ships like UFO`s but lets not go there.

Don`t worry about my American views, dude. I`m on the same side.

TK

[c0de]

you posted twice TK, I already replied above.

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by c0de

And what worries me is these kind of views of yours:

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that enemies of the free world have a death grip on petrol and gas.

There is no "free world" and there are no "enemies"...
There is just the system... And everyone is a node.

You know what, maybe we`re not on the same side.. Then worry all you like.

if the phrase enemies of the free world ticked you off, I just didn`t want to finger point at specific countries for that post.

[c0de]

Originally Posted by TheKhan

You know what, maybe we`re not on the same side..

I stopped picking "sides" in this conflict a while ago.

Then worry all you like.

... why would I worry? I have no stakes here.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by c0de

Just because these grads are Chinese it doesn't mean they are spies.
Besides, most of those grads wont ever have security clearance
to work on any sensitive projects anyway. And most of them will end up
living and working in America, as loyal citizens.

Chinese people have worked for U.S. military firms before. I have found dozens of stories of Chinese engineers getting employment in U.S. military firms and after several years or decades, passing the technology (either through their own personal experience, or actual designs, schematics and data they obtained while being employed) to Chinese agents and companies (who then, gladly, pass it onto the PLA).

All you need to do is do a search on the Internet. I did so myself a while back and was enlightened . . .

The thing about these "spies" is that they aren't professional, not like people who work in the FBI, CIA or the Secret Service. They are just ordinary people.

Believe it or not, some of them are American-born.

Quite possibly, they are offered employment in a Chinese company and get talked into divulging U.S. military secrets and can't help impressing the potential employers in an interview. (ie. "I worked for a U.S. military firm," they say. The Chinese interviewer says, "Wow, can you give me some details?" The engineer says, "Sure . . .")

There are export control laws that forbid such "giving away" of U.S. military technology, but these guys do it anyway because there isn't a paper-trail. There might be a money trail, but perhaps not a paper trail. They do it because they can, because they can possibly get away with it and won't be discovered. They do it under the radar of the U.S. government.

It isn't necessarily Chinese, and nor is it necessarily China that gets the information. It could go to Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia or some other country.

While it's true that the U.S. is often on the side of Israel, that's not the point. The point is, there are export control laws restricting the acquisition of U.S. military technology even by allies of the U.S. That includes South Korea, Japan and the R.O.C. The reason I think is because once in the hands even of allies, it is outside the control of the U.S. and certain "agents" could then pass the technology onto China, Iran or some other country that the U.S. doesn't want to acquire its technology.

You can't really trust anyone but yourself.

I heard a story once about how Australian intelligence spied on America once because its military needed something. Yeah, we're allies, but you know, it's the export control laws. We had to hack it out of them. I think it was during a Labor government when Kim Beazley was Defence Minister. The Americans I heard weren't angry, rather, they were impressed.

I imagine, however, that soon after, there would have been a tightening of security on U.S. military technology in case next time it wasn't an ally of the U.S.

Originally Posted by c0de

So basically TK, the only thing which could defeat the US and its allies is a miracle from God.

Lol, you're making it sound like the U.S. is invincible.

I know you're not being entirely serious about the "miracle from God" part, but it's just the way you're saying it that I find amusing.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by c0de

This idea, that China is the next superpower, or is striving to become one,
is actually a myth. China is not in any position economically or militarily to
challenge even Japan, let alone the US. At this point Japan can sink every
vessel in the PLN and the Chinese know this very well. But before we even
consider the military dimension you have to consider the economy and
demography of China.

China has huge foreign currency reserves and is a global centre for manufacturer of the goods the Western world wants.

If China really wanted to damage the US or Japan, they could easily do so economically. Of course, with trading relationships, the pain would hit both ways.

I guess the point of being a superpower is that you can sting another country without dying yourself.