its been born

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

But JWs have stated dates since their inception, and revised them on more than one occasion, have they not?




Thomas

no one knows the day or hour when Jehovah thinks ..... thats it enough is enough , DANIEL 2;44 But the signs are all happening to know that it will be soon. Jehovahs people know we are in the time of the end, and 1914 was the start of the last days ,but the day and hour when Jesus will go into ACTION is not known . but being on the right side and being inline with Gods purpose is the thing to be doing NOW ...and the light of understanding has over the years become brighter and brighter .

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

The right attitude is in not trying to second-guess God, which is what JW doctrine on this issue does.





Thomas

its good to know that bible prophecy always comes true ,and what ever men do the fullfillment of prophecy will come to be . and Jesus recieving his kingship was right on time . with no second guessing . when true knowledge is abundant it is very clear indeed Daniel 12;4

[mee]

[quote=Thomas;137479]


I am not at all confused. In my Tradition Jesus was, is, and always shall be one with the Father. It is yours which posits change, and seeks to date the change itself — the very notion of change in the Deity Itself is something that Jesus refuted: "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).

quote]



Yes as the bible informs us Jesus is in unity with his father Jehovah the same way that Jesus followers are in unity with Jesus John 10;30 yes Jesus is in oneness of copperation , they are in unity of purpose and that purpose is to give everlasting life back to all obedient mankind. yes Gods original purpose for the earth will be fullfilled . and Jesus plays a very big part in that purpose .

and Jesus knows just what happened to disrupt that original purpose of God (back in the garden of eden) , thats because he was in heaven with his father , looking on at the happening on earth . even before Abraham was born ,Jesus was around but it was in heaven . because as the bible informs us in john 8;58.

Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."

Existence Before Abraham

Joh 8:58—"before Abraham came into existence, I have been"

Gr., πρὶν᾿Αβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

(prin A·bra·am´ ge·ne´sthai e·go´ ei·mi´)

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

You're doing it again — That's your own interpretation, created to suit yourselves, it is called eigesis — reading what one wants to read into the text, rather than what the text says.

And you have not answered how the date 1914 (among others) was arrived at, without recourse to a mode of divination, which is itself a mode of magic forbidden by Scripture, in that it is an attempt to out-guess God.

Thomas

LOL no magic in sight , just good bible based accurate knowledge .





1914 A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy

DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?

As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["the times of the Gentiles," King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah’s throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.
How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah’s throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.
When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it."—Daniel 4:10-16.
In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?
Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

Just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of "the last days" of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.

[Azure24]

Hi all,

Mee, I know you are ignoring me from my last post. Though let me ask you a question. Will not Christ reign on earth or in Heaven?

"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:10)

Will we reign with Christ in Heaven?

"[35]But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" [36]How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. [37]When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. [38]But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body."

[42]So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

[Thomas]

Hi Mee —

Two things:
One: Using your methodology, one can quite easily derive any date one likes from Scripture ... and it's been proven that by using your methodology, one can come up with any piece of data at all ... names, places, dates, events ...

You can do the same with any sizeable text. The example I was shown was Moby Dick, from which one could extract exactly the same information, 1914, all of it ... if you wanted.

Two: Each age always sees prophecy as referring to itself more than any other, and interprets the 'signs' according to itself.

Sorry, but the system has been proven to be flawed Mee, it's man made, and made to come up with the answer you're looking for. As the history of your own tradition demonstrates, when one date doesn't work, you go back and manipulate the data until it reads the way you want it to, and declare the prior reading an error or unfortunate mistake ...

Thomas

[mee]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Hi all,

Mee, I know you are ignoring me from my last post. Though let me ask you a question. Will not Christ reign on earth or in Heaven?

"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:10)

Will we reign with Christ in Heaven?

"[35]But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" [36]How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. [37]When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. [38]But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body."

[42]So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

those who are going to heaven will have to die in the flesh and then they will be resurrected with a spirit body to live in heaven . and the bible says it will be 144,000 of them

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Mee —

Two things:
One: Using your methodology, one can quite easily derive any date one likes from Scripture ... and it's been proven that by using your methodology, one can come up with any piece of data at all ... names, places, dates, events ...

You can do the same with any sizeable text. The example I was shown was Moby Dick, from which one could extract exactly the same information, 1914, all of it ... if you wanted.

Two: Each age always sees prophecy as referring to itself more than any other, and interprets the 'signs' according to itself.

Sorry, but the system has been proven to be flawed Mee, it's man made, and made to come up with the answer you're looking for. As the history of your own tradition demonstrates, when one date doesn't work, you go back and manipulate the data until it reads the way you want it to, and declare the prior reading an error or unfortunate mistake ...

Thomas

its good how it works out right on time now we are well along and things are moving ahead very nicely. bible prophecy always comes true

[mee]

Originally Posted by Azure24

[42]So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

yes the old fleshly body is perishable, but the new body is forever . just like Jesus is .

[mee]

Jesus answered: "My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source." john 18;36 its in heaven and it is born right on time .

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by mee

Jesus answered: "My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source." john 18;36 its in heaven and it is born right on time .

Yes Jesus' Kingdom is not on Earth BUT!

Christ will rule on earth...

"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. [10]You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

Read...

Originally Posted by Azure24

"22For as in Adam ALL die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive[this eventually happens in the end]. 23But each in his own turn[this will NOT happen immediately BUT in TURNS]: Christ[is first], the firstfruits; then[next], when he comes, those who belong to him[the rightous/his followers are second]. 24Then the end will come[the end of Christ's reign with all the rightous lasting an EONIAN (Mostly 9 out of 10 times, the word "Eternal" is wrongly translated from the Greek word for eonian/age-abiding life )], when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all[I hardly doubt the Bible means "a few", but instead ALL]".

This is very clear! It then goes on to say this...

34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God [I wonder who?]—I say this to your shame[shame on you mee!].

Are there enemies in Heaven? Are these enemies: domionion, authority and power in Heaven? Is Death in Heaven? No! After and I say AFTER HE "has put verything under his feet" on EARTH! Then He (and everything else) will be made subject to God. In God's Knigdom (which is ALL in ALL).

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Dah-veeth

The dark clouds I'm talking about symbolize things that keep people from seeing the light.

Hence the disguise... the blessing in disguise. The cloud from which God speaks.

But the foundation of your belief is that someone else's light can somehow block yours, which I find is not true. Light does not block or bury light. There is light even in a LIE and if someone does decieve me then it does not stop me from someday learning the truth.

Alternatively, consider that information is conveyed by contrast. Light and dark. Light alone will blind you, and then you will be in darkness. So if you have a light, and you want to shine, then come on over to where you think there is darkness... so that you can shine brightly, with contrast. Conveying information requires contrast. Blessing in disguise.

[Saltmeister]

I was going to ask how a dark cloud could be a blessing, but now I see what you are saying. Finding the light doesn't always mean doing what the alleged light-holders do. Sometimes we find the light by comparing ourselves to the alleged light-holders.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I was going to ask how a dark cloud could be a blessing, but now I see what you are saying. Finding the light doesn't always mean doing what the alleged light-holders do. Sometimes we find the light by comparing ourselves to the alleged light-holders.

I was saying nothing of the sort. The quality you place on light is your own, and seeing some things does require doing.

I submit: If someone from XYZ says, "Don't listen to ABC because they are evil." Then XYZ has only cast a light... their own light. If XYZ has information or an opinion but retains it, keeps it a secret, then they have cast a cloud... their own cloud. True?

There is a limit to the amount of information my brain can cope with, or I may not be of age to see something, so any cloud preventing me from seeing something can be a real blessing in disguise. There are many, many things that I simply do not wish to know.

In a literal way, dark clouds take history and throw it into outer-space where man can't see it any more, sending fresh rain down here to collect and carry more things away. Blessing in disguise. Those dark rain clouds fill the bath tub, the sink, the toilet, and the glass that I drink from. They are a blessing in disguise.

[mee]

[quote=Azure24;137535]Yes Jesus' Kingdom is not on Earth BUT!

Christ will rule on earth...

"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. [10]You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

quote]
dont forget the beginning of the verse you have forgotten it here it is,


And they sing a new song, saying:


yes ,the one who is worthy to open the scroll is Jesus . and the ones singing the song are these ones in revelation 14;3

And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. revelation 14;3 yes it is those bought from the earth .