Jehovah's Witness I Need Your Help - Page 2

TJ1 · 10-02-2006, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

im not sure its an answer as much as it is a twist.

Considering the context of the verses is not 'twisting' the scripture. How many times has it already been listed as a proof when the Jews say Jesus was claiming to be God, when the next verses show Jesus defending himself from such an accusation!

Should we just ignore that and so "twist" the scripture to say what we want it to say?

TJ

Terrence · 10-02-2006, 09:44 PM

Hey, I sent u a Private message. Did u check that out yet?

TJ1 · 10-02-2006, 09:46 PM

Hi BF,

With respect to Revelation 1:8, you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

why would the father be that which was? saying it is the father makes it really unclear and disjointed from scripture.
the "is" is god the father and jesus the son and the holy spirit. but in the context of revelations, it is clear that the "is" is referring to christ and his diety as god.
however, if we look at it in the context of the messiah dying on the cross, the "was" becomes clear, and because he resurrected back to god he will come again, but this time for judgement, then the "is to come" is clear knowing that the son will come again with power and glory in the clouds.

I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. -- Jesus Christ

Let's take a look at this in the context of Revelation chapter 1.

Revelation 1:4-8 (NASB)
"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--
and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'"

In verses 4 and 5 it can be seen that "Him who is and who was and who is to come" is listed as a different person from "the seven Spirits" and "Jesus Christ." The number seven is often used in Revelation as a symbol for completeness. So "the seven Spirits" would represent the holy spirit flowing in its fulness.

This would show that Jesus Christ and the holy spirit, which was used in the inspiration of the apostle John, are not "Him who is and who was and who is to come." That leaves only the Father, "the Almighty."

TJ

TJ1 · 10-02-2006, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrence

Hey, I sent u a Private message. Did u check that out yet?

Just got it. Thanks.

TJ

Dor · 10-02-2006, 09:54 PM

Lets extend the context just a few verses and see who was being talked about.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Emphasis added.

Mark2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

And there are even more of them....where was the father ever spoken of as the son of man?

TJ1 · 10-02-2006, 10:21 PM

Hi Dor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Lets extend the context just a few verses and see who was being talked about.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Emphasis added.

Unfortunately, the words "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:" in verse 11 that you quote above have long been recognized as a spurious addition to the text. That is, it was added by some scribe long after the book of Revelation was written. The best manuscripts do not contain those words, and neither do most modern translations, such as the NASB, NIV, etc. Why do you think someone would try to add those words to the text?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Mark2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

I take it from this that you believe this 'proves' that Jesus is God. That is not true. Jesus was given this power, just as he gave it to his apostles. (Matthew 28:18; John 20:23) This power didn't make the apostles God did it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Yes, Jesus is sitting "on the right hand of power" which means "the right hand of God." (Acts 2:33) He is at the right hand of the Father.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

And there are even more of them....where was the father ever spoken of as the son of man?

He wasn't. Jesus is the Son of Man. Keep them coming if there are more of them.

TJ

Dor · 10-02-2006, 11:12 PM

OK we can go in circles for days. I prefer my Majority text KJV. You prefer your NWT.

TJ1 · 10-02-2006, 11:35 PM

Hi Dor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

OK we can go in circles for days. I prefer my Majority text KJV. You prefer your NWT.

I didn't think we were going in circles and I didn't quote from the NWT. I quoted from other, popular, modern translations.

Perhaps you could explain to me how you understand the verses below.

John 17:1-3 (KJV)
"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Notice that Jesus is speaking to his Father when he calles him "the only true God" and then mentions himself apart from "the only true God." Do you still view Jesus as "the only true God," and if so why?

Thanks.

TJ

Quahom1 · 10-02-2006, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ1

Hi Dor.

I didn't think we were going in circles and I didn't quote from the NWT. I quoted from other, popular, modern translations.

Perhaps you could explain to me how you understand the verses below.

John 17:1-3 (KJV)
"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Notice that Jesus is speaking to his Father when he calles him "the only true God" and then mentions himself apart from "the only true God." Do you still view Jesus as "the only true God," and if so why?

Thanks.

TJ

Last time I checked, and is an inclusive, not a detractor. Also, since we could not see God fully in the old testament, I see no reason why we would suddenly be able to see God fully in the New testament. God Jesus (taking on the mantle of man) beats a bush, and a whirl wind, anyday.

Dor · 10-03-2006, 12:03 AM

Yes as a matter of fact I do.

Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not some half god half man thing or Michael. He is fully God and fully man. With two distinct natures.
So in this single person of Jesus is both a divine and human nature.

The divine nature was not changed, it was not altered, he is not merely a man who "had God within him" or "manifested the God principle" or "reached the Christ conscience(sp)".
He is simply God(2nd part of the trinity). The 2 natures are not mixed at all.

So as a man when he needed to pray he prayed to the Father.

BlaznFattyz · 10-03-2006, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Last time I checked, and is an inclusive, not a detractor.

i was just thinking that myself. the mystery of god (jesus christ) is first listed because from the beginning god has hidden all things in him, then jesus christ is listed because he has been made known. it is all inclusive "and".

BlaznFattyz · 10-03-2006, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

So as a man when he needed to pray he prayed to the Father.

that is quite correct.

TJ1 · 10-03-2006, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Last time I checked, and is an inclusive, not a detractor.

So at Matthew 10:2-4, where it says, "These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him," (NIV) you see these as inclusive?

TJ

Quahom1 · 10-03-2006, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

that is quite correct.

He put aside His "God Head". Quite ironic, that He showed us what we could eventually become (and what we were supposed to be in the beginning), in total communion with God, and fully (willingly) subject to His will.

Quahom1 · 10-03-2006, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ1

So at Matthew 10:2-4, where it says, "These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him," (NIV) you see these as inclusive?

TJ

yes, I do see the inclusive. Everyone of those men had an inclusive role to play in the perfection of God's ideal for mankind. I see no contradiction. Indeed, without them, there would have been flaws, yet there were none.