Jehovah's Witnesses

Terrence · 09-25-2006, 04:46 PM

I'm confused as to why Jehovah's Witnesses believe what they believe. I know that they are nice and sincere people, but the obvious truth is that they are obviously wrong. How can I say that? Well, they have so many failed prophecies. I mean, if this was the Old Testament times, they would have been stoned to death already. Futhermore, all their theology is wrong, from Christology to Soteriology and all thing nonessentials in between. One of my best friends is the son of a Jehovah's Witness who is pretty high in the kindgom hall of NY and MD. I hear his sons talk about their doctrine and its so way off that I cant believe that people actually believe this stuff. Why? How come? Are they given over to a depraved mind because they choose to believe lies? I dont know? All I know is that they better get their Christology right because if you dont have the right Jesus, you do not have the Father. Moreover, if you dont believe that Jesus' words..."If you dont believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins." The "he" isnt there in the orignal greek. Jesus is the I am and is the Eternal God. You must beleive in Him to be saved.

BlaznFattyz · 09-25-2006, 05:36 PM

from a christian point of view, i can understand the frustration in your post. something that may seem so close yet so far is harder to deal with sometime. if your favorite team loses by a mile, then you kinda go oh well there was no chance that day.. but if your team loses by 1 point, it is harder to swallow, and the what ifs kick in. although as brothers in christ we are rest assured that our salvation is in christ, the son of god. others, for many reasons do not share the same belief that the bible is the word of god and the truth that binds us together in knowing that our salvation is in christ, the son of god. those are not given that opportunity, or are in darkness, deceived, or the ones deceiving, they are not easily won over nor shown any compassion or respect but blatantly being called wrong. in my experience this does not lend itself to conversation but arguments. the misled need to be given good examples from which to draw conclusions. plant the seed and let the spirit of god do the rest, for in all things, all religions... there are those that seek truth from god not man and when they seek it they find that jesus was always there and is the only way, for there is no contradiction in truth and grace and love of god.

Terrence · 09-25-2006, 06:02 PM

Thanks, that makes sense. I didnt mean to start a fight but was just frustrated, like you rightly guessed. OK, my JW friends, please dont be angry with me. As a matter of fact, dont even believe me. Look at the Bible (not your own translation) without your presuppossitions and let God's truth speak to you. "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all those who will believe it." I cannot coax you into believing the gospel, it has the power in itself to do that.

Dondi · 09-25-2006, 06:05 PM

If one wishes to be persuaded to your view, it is wise not to delve into arguments that will only push people further away from understanding. No one wants to lose an argument, and thus one's defenses will be a brick wall to any who would try to prove them wrong.

We need to heed the advice of Paul to Timothy:

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." - 2 Timothy 2:24-26

I suspect the mee will soon have a word about this, but this forum needs to be a place of respect for all beliefs.

wil · 09-25-2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

...but this forum needs to be a place of respect for all beliefs.

Including those of the Jehovaha's Witnesses, yes? Could be others are here for us to truly understand tolerance. I hate that mirror.

Terrence · 09-25-2006, 06:40 PM

Hey now guys...I respect their religion and right to believe whatever they will. I'm just saying its not what the Bible teaches and that is obvious. I can love people and still dont agree with them. I do it all the time! Also, I'm not trying to persuaded anyone. The gospel itself can change someone, if they choose to believe it. Dont be so judgemental and intolerant.

Dondi · 09-25-2006, 07:12 PM

I wasn't being judgemental. Oh contrare, it was you who said "all their theology is wrong". That would put anyone who is a JW on the offensive, I should think. It would certainly me. If it is anyone who is judgemental, it is you.

There are some things that I actually do agree with JWs. And it is from that platform that I try to find a common dialog with JWs. All I was saying is that one will be more effective in their efforts to evangelize if one doesn't come across as completely against someone's beliefs right off the bat. Paul said,

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." - 1 Corinthians 9:20-22

In Jesus' time, the Jews despised the Samaritans for they were an abherrant sect, yet Jesus approached the Samaritan woman with meekness and respect. Should we not follow His example?

Terrence · 09-25-2006, 07:31 PM

We really must come out of this post modern mind set, its really doing nothing to forward truth. To say the truth, i.e., that the JW's theolgy is wrong, isnt judgemental, but in fact, truth; according to the Bible's rendtion of truth, at least. Yes, I agree that we must be loving and win people with love. But, we must also remember that it is not us saving or even changing a person. A person only becomes born again when God - get this now - changes a person and makes them actually want to serve God, His way. You must understand that No ones seeks after God, but God in His mercy, seeks after undeserving and wicked men and calls them from death to life.

Dondi · 09-25-2006, 07:50 PM

Quote:

We really must come out of this post modern mind set, its really doing nothing to forward truth. To say the truth, i.e., that the JW's theolgy is wrong, isnt judgemental, but in fact, truth; according to the Bible's rendtion of truth, at least.

But JWs don't view there version of the truth as wrong. So to say that they are wrong does nothing to further the discussion. All that will happen is an endless argument over doctrine. You just cannot come out with guns fully loaded. We are to be light into the darkness, not flamethrowers. If you are going to win them, it will be with an attitude of understanding and cordial examination of the text. There is something else you need to understand is that JWs have invested a great deal of their lives in what they believe. For many of them, a forsaking of that will result in ostacizism from their family and friends.

Quote:

But, we must also remember that it is not us saving or even changing a person. A person only becomes born again when God - get this now - changes a person and makes them actually want to serve God, His way. You must understand that No ones seeks after God, but God in His mercy, seeks after undeserving and wicked men and calls them from death to life.

Yes, but how do you know that a JW doesn't have that desire to serve God. I've ashamedly seen more JWs out and about presenting there gospel that I see most denominations doing. I've met some who are absolutely sincere in their beliefs and have a love for other people. But see, now you are getting away from theology and into a person's heart, which God can only judge. You've even said that only God can change them, so then what is your purpose in deriding their beliefs?

BlaznFattyz · 09-25-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

...so then what is your purpose in deriding their beliefs?

obviously it is stated in his opening statement of confusion of their beliefs, and at the same time indirectly asking the question of the best way to shed light on these matters, as it has been pointed out already, thru this learning experience of dialogue. its not the stance that is wrong terrance, it is the method by which it is conveyed. i know it is extremely hard has christians to not spread the good news as it the will of god that men know the truth and be saved, but in the context of this forum, it is one of respect, conversation, and comparative studies. live and learn.

aburaees · 09-25-2006, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrence

Hey now guys...I respect their religion and right to believe whatever they will. I'm just saying its not what the Bible teaches and that is obvious. I can love people and still dont agree with them. I do it all the time! Also, I'm not trying to persuaded anyone. The gospel itself can change someone, if they choose to believe it. Dont be so judgemental and intolerant.

If it where so obvious, as you claim, don't you think that many sincere Witnesses would be ready to admit that?
Saying that they are obviously wrong is tantamount to accusing them of knowingly spreading a falsehood.

wil · 09-25-2006, 08:31 PM

We all have our differences of opinion....and we all think we are right...and we all think we are serving the lord.

This does not just include the various denominations of Christianity, but also most the world religions.

Yes this is a generalization, but Terrence, I do believe that you believe you are right yes? And I don't know what denomination you are, but that belief in itself...does that not make you think that 90% of the world is wrong...and needs your superior guidance?

Seek first to understand then to be understood...Covey...valuable.

BlaznFattyz · 09-25-2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

I've ashamedly seen more JWs out and about presenting there gospel that I see most denominations doing. I've met some who are absolutely sincere in their beliefs and have a love for other people. But see, now you are getting away from theology and into a person's heart, which God can only judge.

this is a very good point. although christian evangelism is global and many resources are spent in spreading the gospel. i agree also that as many have been born into religions that are not christian, many people want to know god and the truth. many are not fortunate to know that thru christ, the son of god there is salvation. but they love god nonetheless, some very very much.

Terrence · 09-25-2006, 09:18 PM

But JWs don't view there version of the truth as wrong. So to say that they are wrong does nothing to further the discussion. All that will happen is an endless argument over doctrine. You just cannot come out with guns fully loaded. We are to be light into the darkness, not flamethrowers. If you are going to win them, it will be with an attitude of understanding and cordial examination of the text. There is something else you need to understand is that JWs have invested a great deal of their lives in what they believe. For many of them, a forsaking of that will result in ostacizism from their family and friends.

Again, I agree that these people go through persecution after leaving the religion, but thats only a promise that is to be fulfilled if you really are a Christian. Its good to suffer persecution for the Lord's sake. That said however, you seem to think that I am trying to win a JW and that being a light is a contradiction to saying biblical truth openly and honestly. I assure you, it is not.

Yes, but how do you know that a JW doesn't have that desire to serve God.

Because the Bible says so..."There is NONE who seek after God." People who seek after false idols that they make up in their mind and serve that as their god, to try to appease their conscience which knows that there is a God. That is why we have religion, I feel. Yet, true religion begans when God changes a man through repentence and faith in Christ.

I've ashamedly seen more JWs out and about presenting there gospel that I see most denominations doing.

I agree with you here. I'm embarrased by the fact that Chrisitans have the true gospel and seldom go out of their way to share their faith. I see more and more Christians witnessing now though (especially younger people) and I'm pleased by that!

I've met some who are absolutely sincere in their beliefs and have a love for other people. But see, now you are getting away from theology and into a person's heart, which God can only judge. You've even said that only God can change them, so then what is your purpose in deriding their beliefs?

There are many sincere people and if they dont have the true Jesus, they remain sincerely worng. The world is filled with Good people, but Jesus, unlike all other religious leaders/figures etc., didnt come to make bad peple good. Rather, Jesus, the true Jesus, came to make dead men live. He came to make those who are dead in sins alive to God. I dont have to see a person's heart (which I cannot do) to know that NO one seeks God, all I have to do is read God's words. The truth is, unless the Father draws a person to Christ, no one will ever come because by nature, we are all God hating people who do not want to submit to the greatest good - namely, to obey the gospel - die to self and follow Jesus. This is not to say that we cannot do good - we obvious can and do, I'm just saying that we wont choose the godly good or highest good because it opposses our own will.

Terrence · 09-25-2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aburaees

If it where so obvious, as you claim, don't you think that many sincere Witnesses would be ready to admit that?
Saying that they are obviously wrong is tantamount to accusing them of knowingly spreading a falsehood.

Ever hear the saying..."Common sense isnt so common?" I think it might apply here. Honestly speaking, the truth in the Bible is very obvious, but people by nature are opposed to it. We love sin and hate God. Until God does a supernatual work in us, we will have nothing to do with Jesus. Instead, to appease our conscience, we will create relgions, and ethical systems to aim to be good people. The gospel of Jesus is apposed to EVERY religion in the world. All religions, including false Christanity and the cults under the Christian name, say that if you want to be saved, you must do something and God act and do something else. The gopsel of Jesus is that you are dead in sins and can do nothing in and of yourself to please God, let alone be saved. The gospel is that Christ suffered God's wrath on behalf of sinners and they are free from the wages of breaking God's law. The gospel of Jesus is that sinners are now justified by what Christ did and those who accept the message by turning from sins and trusting in Jesus, will be saved. The simplicity of this message, I suppose, is what makes it foolish? And, as a result, people dont believe it but instead work to win God's approval. The gospel of works its the doctrine of the JWs.