Jehovah's Witnesses grow by 'devious' methods, charge anti-missionaries - Page 7

17th Angel · 08-29-2008, 11:08 AM

We're all sons(creations) of god.. And we're all made "in his image"

mee · 08-29-2008, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abdillah

However, as far as I know, JWs still regard Jesus as the only begotten "son of God" having (God forbid) the same essence of God, and being a human manifestation of God. It is this belief which I take strong exception to.

human manifestation of God

this is not a Jehovahs witness belief.
Jesus is Gods son

Definition:

The only-begotten Son of God, the only Son produced by Jehovah alone. This Son is the firstborn of all creation.

By means of him all other things in heaven and on earth were created. He is the second-greatest personage in the universe.

It is this Son whom Jehovah sent to the earth to give his life as a ransom for mankind, thus opening the way to eternal life for those of Adam’s offspring who would exercise faith.

This same Son, restored to heavenly glory, now rules as King, with authority to destroy all the wicked and to carry out his Father’s original purpose for the earth.

The Hebrew form of the name Jesus means "Jehovah Is Salvation"; Christ is the equivalent of the Hebrew Ma·shi´ach (Messiah), meaning "Anointed One."

Abdillah · 08-29-2008, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

The only-begotten Son of God, the only Son produced by Jehovah alone

Respectfully, I cannot accept this, and my question is if Jesus is the only "son" produced by God, than what about the rest of God's creation? Who produced us? Jesus was created like any other human being, he was nothing but human, he ate food, drank water, went to sleep, and even answered the call of nature. His being "special" is only in the sense that he was a pious human being whom Allah chose to be His messenger to the people of Israel. All of his miracles were given to him by the authority of God, and Jesus himself said: "By myself I can do nothing" (John 5:30)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

By means of him all other things in heaven and on earth were created

The creation of the heavens and the earth was by God and God alone, no one shared in His power or glory and no one else can take credit for what He alone did and does. Jesus was just a human being, he came out of a woman's womb, he was not the creator of the universe.

Quote:

It is this Son whom Jehovah sent to the earth to give his life as a ransom for mankind, thus opening the way to eternal life for those of Adam’s offspring who would exercise faith.

Every soul must bear its own burden, sins cannot be "transferred" from one soul to the other. Redemption does not lie in someone being crucified and bearing the punishment for our own sins. Redemption lies in turning back to Allah and being devoted to Him alone, repenting our sins to Him alone, and rejecting all false gods and idols. Islam is the path of devotion, devotion to the One True God (Allah). He has no sons or daughters, He has no father or mother, He is without beginning and without end.

Jesus was sent by Allah to preach this very message, and following this message is the way to salvation.

17th Angel · 08-29-2008, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

By means of him all other things in heaven and on earth were created.

In the beginning YHWH created the heavens and the earth.......

I fail to see jesus mentioned.

Abdillah · 08-29-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex P

In the beginning YHWH created the heavens and the earth.......
I fail to see jesus mentioned.

Exactly.

17th Angel · 08-29-2008, 12:17 PM

Not that I can determine or second guess god... But I know YHWH doesn't share his glory with any... And to claim jesus was responsible for the creations of heaven and earth and all upon it.... I think that would be a slap in the face to YHWH.

mee · 08-29-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex P

In the beginning YHWH created the heavens and the earth.......

I fail to see jesus mentioned.

without JEHOVAH there would be no power , the power comes from Jehovah , but Jesus was the only one created by Jehovah alone, that is why he is known as the FIRST-BORN of creation ,

everything else in the universe was created through Jesus as the bible itself informs us ,
but the power to create comes from the most high JEHOVAH .

remember in Genesis it says LET US MAKE MAN . JEHOVAH is the most high ,without him there would be nothing , and as his name Jehovah means HE CAUSES TO BECOME it has great meaning in that name

17th Angel · 08-29-2008, 03:27 PM

Unusual for you... :/ You normally put bible scriptures in your posts... Could you kindly give me scriptures that;

A: Show jesus was the first ever creation.
B: jesus has a share in YHWH's glory.
C: jesus created the heaven's and the earth.

Thanks

mee · 08-29-2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex P

Not that I can determine or second guess god... But I know YHWH doesn't share his glory with any... And to claim jesus was responsible for the creations of heaven and earth and all upon it.... I think that would be a slap in the face to YHWH.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,

Col. 1:15-17,

Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.
From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. proverbs 8;22-23

then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
proverbs 8;30-31

For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. John 3;16-17

BlaznFattyz · 08-29-2008, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex P

In the beginning YHWH created the heavens and the earth.......

I fail to see jesus mentioned.

If i may, Christianity acknowledges Jesus and the Father as both YHWH. And the Son is the brightness of His glory, the exact representation of God's Nature. It is because they are both YHWH, both Lord of all things, that they both are glorified as YHWH. It is Elohim (God) that created the heavens, that is it is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit which all took part in creation.

17th Angel · 08-29-2008, 04:29 PM

But we are looking at this from the view point jesus and YHWH are two different beings.

BlaznFattyz · 08-29-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex P

But we are looking at this from the view point jesus and YHWH are two different beings.

Im just giving you the christian side on this matter, YHWH is the name for both the Father and the Son, just as they are both called Lord and Saviour. They are both YHWH.

Abdillah · 08-30-2008, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Im just giving you the christian side on this matter, YHWH is the name for both the Father and the Son, just as they are both called Lord and Saviour. They are both YHWH.

However, the Jehovah's Witness sect believes that Jesus and Jehovah (God) are two separate beings. Therefore JWs believe that Jehovah and Jesus both shared in the creation of the heavens and the earth, which means God has a partner who shares in His glory (according to JW belief).

Quahom1 · 08-30-2008, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abdillah

However, the Jehovah's Witness sect believes that Jesus and Jehovah (God) are two separate beings. Therefore JWs believe that Jehovah and Jesus both shared in the creation of the heavens and the earth, which means God has a partner who shares in His glory (according to JW belief).

Yes, this is correct for the Jehovah's Witnesses (a "sect" of Christianity).

Saltmeister · 08-30-2008, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

Im just giving you the christian side on this matter, YHWH is the name for both the Father and the Son, just as they are both called Lord and Saviour. They are both YHWH.

Well, I wouldn't exactly say that......

Let's not forget that the Bible is a piece of literature. Literature contains words that carry meaning. Different words are used for different purposes and for different reasons. YHWH, Father, Son, Lord and Saviour are words and labels that identify different concepts, concepts that are not equal or the same. YHWH and Father do not refer to the same concept even if that are addressing the same entity.

YHWH identifies the concept of a God whose name is not to be pronounced. Father identifies a personal God that to us is like a Father-figure.

Lord identifies a person of leadership and authority of a feudal/tribal nature, a person whom one serves and to whom one owes loyalty. The Lord Jesus is the "lord" of the tribe of Jesus Christ.

Saviour is a person who rescues.

Son is a person who is taught by a Father how to think and behave. Jesus is referred to as the Son "who does only what he sees his own Father doing."

The issue of Jesus "being God" is somewhat blurred, an issue I don't think is even "black and white." To me it seems more likely that the references to the relationship between Jesus and God were suggesting that "Jesus was a projection of God" rather than "Jesus is literally God." If Jesus was literally God, they would be no point in saying, "the Son does only what he sees his own Father doing," or that "he is the visible likeness of an invisible God."

Visible likeness does not imply that they are one and the same. It implies that he is an "image" of something invisible.

A lot of the things you find in the New Testament isn't literal. The New Testament is full of descriptive language and metaphors. It hardly defines anything so you could probably see a lot of things loosely.

Religion is spiritual. It isn't about material things. It's about the soul of things. For me personally, Jesus' purpose here was more important than whether or not he was literally God. The technicality of Jesus being or not being God is an irrelevant one.

It is not our business when someone is wrong about a technicality with regards to religious concepts. That is part of that person's relationship with God. That person with the "wrong" belief believes that he is right. The wrongness is a matter between him and God and is not something for us to judge. That is someone else's life. Life is a journey. We make mistakes. We make wrong turns. Yet, sometimes these mistakes were meant to happen. The mistakes happened for the right reasons.

Jesus' purpose is more important than his nature and if we fight over Jesus' nature we may lose sight of his purpose. God probably doesn't care so much about his nature than his purpose. A person may be technically correct about his nature, but God is probably more concerned about that person's journey through life. He was right about something trivial, but wrong about something important.

The fact that there are so many different theories out there may be a sign that our obsession with the technicalities is itself the one biggest mistake of all and that we all missing the mark. As I said, the Bible is a piece of literature. It is meaning expressed through words and language and you know how ambiguous writing and language can be. The literature of the Bible hardly ever has one meaning. The writing has a likely meaning, as well as many less likely meanings.

The fact that the New Testament describes a lot but defines very little may be an indication to us that we should be treating its words as descriptions and less as definitions. When we argue about whether Jesus is literally God, or just a projection, or servant/messenger, we are being technical and arguing about definitions.

I find descriptions more useful than definitions because descriptions are exploratory. They are like lights that reveal the path of a journey you are taking. In our personal life journey many things are not already clear and it is by walking the journey that we make discoveries. The New Testament doesn't tell us the "exact location" of the gates of heaven. It gives us clues on how to find them.

To hear someone say that "Jesus is literally God" isn't very useful information. What's the point of that statement? This argument has gone on for centuries but I think people are just going round and round in circles and getting nowhere. Whatever helps us forward in the journey is useful. If it doesn't help, it isn't useful.

If you really think about it, whether we see Jesus as God, a projection of God or a servant/messenger, they are all equally plausible ways of seeing it. Each is just a perspective. Maybe as part of our life's journey we saw one of them as the most meaningful. Someone else found another concept more meaningful. But what that means is that the journey is more important that the perspective that arises. The perspective simply arises as part of the process of exploration. It's a means to an end. As long as you can get to the Father, it doesn't matter so much.