Jesus and Liberal Christianity

Blue Jay · 09-12-2006, 10:51 PM

I have some questions about Jesus and Liberal Christianity. I read some things that Taijasi said about esoteric Christianity. What about ordinary liberal Christians who don't go for the estoeric teachings?

Maybe this is just another way of saying the same thing Wil said in Jesus, Christ, et al, but I didn't really see anybody talking much about the specific questions I have.

I don't know if I should post it as another post in Wil's thread or start a new thread. It seems like a new thread would be best because I have a list of questions I am interested in.

Here are some of my questions, though not necessarily listed in order of importance:

Who do Liberal Christians think Jesus is?
What role do they think Jesus has in salvation?
Is the crucifixion important to salvation for Liberal Christianity?
What is salvation?
What is sin?
Is there such a thing as sin? If not, what must we be saved from?
Is salvation necessary? If not, what role does Jesus play?
Is the Jesus story best seen as historical event or as Sacred Myth?
Does Liberal Christianity need Jesus?
Why? (for any question you answer but esp. Questions 8 & 9)

For all of these questions I am interested in what Liberal Christians think. I know the traditional orthodox teachings.

BJ

wil · 09-13-2006, 02:33 AM

Namaste BJ

Who do Liberal Christians think Jesus is? In all of these I can only tell you what this Christian thinks...and I've been called all sorts of stuff, liberal being one of them. Jesus to me was a man who realized his oneness with all that is and showed others what man's potential truly is.
What role do they think Jesus has in salvation? Jesus is our elder brother and wayshower...he blazed a path, made things obvious through his salvation, we realize we too can move forward in this life, like one who broke the four minute mile, or climbed Everest, suddenly the impossible is possible, this realization is our salvation.
Is the crucifixion important to salvation for Liberal Christianity? We all have our cross to bear, we all nail ourselves to it on a regular basis, he showed that a. he wished to avoid it (take this cup from me), and b. that it can be surpassed.
What is salvation? Realizing that we are one, one with each other, Ye are G-ds, I and the Father are one, created and creator, co-creators with this reality, of all the things 'liberal Christianity' removed from me, I miss blame the most.
What is sin? Missing the mark, not doing what you know is right, not attempting what you know is possible. We are not punished for our sins...but by them.
Is there such a thing as sin? If not, what must we be saved from? We are not punished for our sins...but by them.
Is salvation necessary? If not, what role does Jesus play? Salvation is the end result, no matter how many lives it takes. Jesus was another one of the teachers...following in the footsteps of Buddha, Krishna, Mohamed, Lao Tzu...or thousands of others will assist you in finding oneness as well.
Is the Jesus story best seen as historical event or as Sacred Myth? Yes, whatever it takes to get one moving to a higher level of understanding of this world but not in it.
Does Liberal Christianity need Jesus? Yes, he is my guide my mentor. Of course without him, I could have chosen another guide, or decided to go within and learn for myself...but again, who knows how many more lifetimes that would have took (or how many more it will take)
Why? (for any question you answer but esp. Questions 8 & 9) I think I answered my why's in the questions....again these are my thoughts and interpretations...I cannot answer for anyone else. And this is my current thought, I can't be held accountable for these answers and deny future growth.

Blue Jay · 09-13-2006, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I think I answered my why's in the questions....again these are my thoughts and interpretations...I cannot answer for anyone else. And this is my current thought, I can't be held accountable for these answers and deny future growth.

Thank you, Wil. I just came from reading "Did Jesus Die" on the Esoteric forum. I left a note there. That thread is really helpful to me in understanding your answers here.

I learned a LOT of new ideas from that thread, esp. from the things you and Taijasi posted. I am even beginning to make some sense of the esoteric teachings. At first I didn't think I ever would but there was a lot of background on that thread that helped me.

Since you say that you speak only for yourself I welcome answers from others if they wish to respond.

BJ

Thomas · 11-03-2006, 06:35 PM

Hi Wil -

We are not punished for our sins...but by them.

That is a brilliant observation. If I could swap one 'orthodox' view for one 'liberal' view, it would be that.

Thomas

JosephM · 11-22-2006, 11:28 PM

Wil's answers are close enough for me. I'll ditto them.

Love in Christ,
JM

wil · 02-15-2007, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Wil -

We are not punished for our sins...but by them.

That is a brilliant observation. If I could swap one 'orthodox' view for one 'liberal' view, it would be that.

Thomas

Namaste Thomas....

Ready to barter? Which 'orthodox' view that I don't currently hold do you believe I would like to.

This isn't a joke, I feel you are aware of my understandings, twould be interesting to see...now this is more like a hug than an exchange, the more you give the more you get, neither of us loses our current view, just adds a new perspective.

Gosh I like that analogy. Can it play out. Imagine your religion has its window on the world...and you have a few walls without windows. Opening yourself up to new thought still leaves you with your religion, your view, but just puts an opening in another wall, and gives one another perspective...

Oh how I love how the neuronet works when a tendrile grows or shifts to a another location and the little electrochemical impulses start jumping new synapses...bless you Thomas and BlueJay for the instigation and Thank You G-d!

Now you all may think I'm nuts, but I do so enjoy my little moments.

Thomas · 02-15-2007, 08:57 PM

Hi Wil –

That's a good question! And deserving of a considered the answer ...

Thomas

lunamoth · 02-15-2007, 09:28 PM

I'm so confused!

Wil, are you asking Thomas to pick an orthodox view for you that he feels is most critical or most uplifiting or most illuminating?

If so, interesting experiment!

Wouldn't it be interesting if we each could really convey to others the very heart of our own faith.

wil · 02-15-2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I'm so confused!

Wil, are you asking Thomas to pick an orthodox view for you that he feels is most critical or most uplifiting or most illuminating?

As I've indicated before I'm a fan of the seven habits by Covey. A favorite is 'seek first to understand, then to be understood'.

Can you imagine Thomas offering me something I wouldn't want? I couldn't and especially can't after his reply. I have been attending Jewish services occassionally wow what they have to offer is incredible.

This place provides such a wealth and breadth of opinion, belief and thought it is truly wonderful to be stretched...and challenged. Taking care to hold ones belief and principles in discussion is such a task, it really identifies weaknesses.

But the flip side...Thomas admiring a thought, which obviously he can have if he wishes...but the gift of his thoughtful consideration as to what tool he has in his basket that he knows would benefit me...what could be grander?

Thomas · 02-20-2007, 01:01 PM

Hi Wil -

Well, being somewhat sneaky, I would offer the Catholic view of the actuality of Revelation – so as a summary of that position, below is a paragraph from the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, one of the four principle documents of Vatican II, which I offer for your contemplation:

In His goodness and wisdom God chose to reveal Himself and to make known to us the hidden purpose of His will (see Eph. 1:9) by which through Christ, the Word made flesh, man might in the Holy Spirit have access to the Father and come to share in the divine nature (see Eph. 2:18; 2 Peter 1:4). Through this revelation, therefore, the invisible God (see Col. 1;15, 1 Tim. 1:17) out of the abundance of His love speaks to men as friends (see Ex. 33:11; John 15:14-15) and lives among them (see Bar. 3:38), so that He may invite and take them into fellowship with Himself. This plan of revelation is realized by deeds and words having in inner unity: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation manifest and confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, while the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them. By this revelation then, the deepest truth about God and the salvation of man shines out for our sake in Christ, who is both the mediator and the fullness of all revelation.

Sneaky because of its depth and profundity – suffice to say that 40 years later, theologians agree there is still much work to be done in unlocking this document.

If you wish to read further, it can be found here:
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION "DEI VERBUM"

Pax,

Thomas

Thomas

wil · 02-20-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

In His goodness and wisdom God chose to reveal Himself and to make known to us the hidden purpose of His will (see Eph. 1:9) by which through Christ, the Word made flesh, man might in the Holy Spirit have access to the Father and come to share in the divine nature (see Eph. 2:18; 2 Peter 1:4). Through this revelation, therefore, the invisible God (see Col. 1;15, 1 Tim. 1:17) out of the abundance of His love speaks to men as friends (see Ex. 33:11; John 15:14-15) and lives among them (see Bar. 3:38), so that He may invite and take them into fellowship with Himself. This plan of revelation is realized by deeds and words having in inner unity: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation manifest and confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, while the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them. By this revelation then, the deepest truth about God and the salvation of man shines out for our sake in Christ, who is both the mediator and the fullness of all revelation.

Namaste Sneaky...

Good stuff. I bolded what I thought particularly poignant...

The hidden purpose of His will that man might in the Holy Spirit have access to the Father and come to share in the divine nature .

God may invite and take them into fellowship with Himself.

The deeds wrought by God confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, and clarify the mystery contained in them.

Now I regularly get accused of twisting words. Of taking things out of context. Of seeing things that are not there.

But to me I am reading here that we all have that divine nature, that Christ/G-d within, and Christ came to show us the connection.

I and Daddy are one...not this big seperateness, duality but oneness, Jesus preached it, and realized it as the Christ and showed us our potential. My relationship with source is one of an internal connection, of virtual high fiving, of singing together in the choir, of sharing life experiences...

And then that last line....looking into all the smiting and plagues and vengeful nature and confusing texts....Jesus in his explanations and parables opened the door for examination of all scripture to find the deeper meanings...the mystery contained within...

I thoroughly appreciate your quote, it absolutely resonates with my thought. The rest of the text is quite interesting...I can't say I'm married to the apostolic succession...I believe Christ made us all successors of the majesty tore the veil and no longer required us to go through mediators...only through his nature...

I knew you could provide me with a foothold to gain appreciation, in my way, to the teachings you study....thank you so much.

Thomas · 02-20-2007, 07:38 PM

Hi Wil –

But to me I am reading here that we all have that divine nature, that Christ/G-d within, and Christ came to show us the connection.

I think we in the Catholic Church see it not so much as a connection as a vocation ... I fear I am obliged to say such, lest my silence be read as allowing you to assume something we do not teach.

'that divine nature' is not our human nature – or put another way, human nature is not in and of itself divine – if it were, then the question would be how can it not know itself, how can it err, if that which is divine is perfect?

And if we say we are imperfect, then we cannot say we are divine ...

... but we do say that human nature is open to the Divine and, God willing, can partake of the Divine by filiation, adoption, or, as you picked out "man might in the Holy Spirit have access to the Father and come to share in the divine nature" ... and there, for us the emphasis lies, not in ourselves, but in the Holy Spirit which transforms us ...

Thomas

wil · 02-20-2007, 10:03 PM

connection v. vocation...

can you ellaborate?

Our job our calling to increase the 'connection' with the divine?

I accept the imperfection....but I see a faucet, and I choose to shut it off or let it flow???

Thomas · 02-20-2007, 10:55 PM

Hi Wil –

Human nature is a created nature, the soul is likewise a created essence, whereas God in Uncreated ...

... we are made in His likeness and His image, but we are made, so on these grounds we might say there is an immeasurable distance between man and God, in fact one could say man shares more in common with anything and everything else in the Kosmos, than God ...

In like fashion, we believe that Christ, in the Incarnation, 'became man' – not 'became a man' – an instance and contingent mode of being of a genus and species, but 'became man' in that He is the Incarnation of the Principle of Personhood as it manifests in the material realm, so anything He effects in Himself, in His humanity, (as He has no need to effect anything in his Divinity) effects us all in principle by virtue of that fact: "Behold, I make all things new." (Rev 21:5)

Curiously, as I understand it, Buddhism holds to the same idea in that there are 32 (I think) signs by which one can recognise the Buddha – not because one Buddha is the 'spitting image' of another, but that they are manifestations not of Siddhārtha Gautama, but of the Principle of Buddha Nature.

(There's a huge discussion of reincarnation here, in that 'you' do not reincarnate, but rather the principle of life that animates you reincarnates, in a world that is progressively better or worse according to the law of karma ... I am hoping to debate this one day, as I have something of a suspicion that the West, which is so intensely person-focussed, assumes that reincarnation refers to something they can identify with 'myself' ... that 'I' will come back as another permutation of 'me' whereas, as I understand it, the person is an ephemeral chimera in that regard, it is 'life' that goes on, not 'you' ... but I could well be wrong.)

Anyway ... the point is 'we' are not divine, and God is not 'in me' according to my nature or essence, but according to Grace, the divine can dwell in us, as it can in all things, but we are 'gifted' in that we can know and commune with the Divine, in some mysterious way ...

Meister Eckhart spoke about this when he talked of the 'Incarnation in the soul' – a 'virgin birth' because it is a miraculous gift and not according to any natural operation (hence our refutation of Pelagianism) – as Jesus said: "for without me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)

We see this work as utterly Trinitarian – we are drawn to the Father, made known to us by the Son, and we in turn are perfected by the Power of the Holy Spirit ...

Thomas

wil · 02-21-2007, 01:24 PM

Namaste my brother...good stuff, like to delve into that reincarnation some more...looking forward to your thread.

Again my problem is doing the math. It is said that G-d is in Heaven. And Jesus is there at his right hand. Well we know that I think that all metaphor of sorts (hands etc.) but Jesus also said look neither high nor low, here nor there, the kingdom is in our midst, or within...

So that puts my connection awfully close, it puts G-d and Christ in each one of us. With modern science I look at string theory and wormholes and see that I have access to all that is...right within my heart. Maybe not physically the heart, some say it is the base of the brain, but the access is through the thought that is my heart...my thought.