Jesus Christ, he will return?

[Postmaster]

People practise good and bad independently from religion, religion is an administration you wish to support.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

People practise good and bad independently from religion, religion is an administration you wish to support.

I agree with the first part postmaster, but not the second. For me religion is a path that leads me to God, and most emphatically not 'an administratin I wish to support.'

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by smkolins

Certainly there will always be individuals who act in the name of a religion who utterly fail to represent any of its tenants. But there are larger scale issues - when many wars are fought, when institutions of social prominence who are allied to a religion but are in fact vicious machines of oppression and injustice, the very leaders of religion are themselves engaged in compromising the virtues of honesty and sincerity their religion calls upon, when this is all not just a pattern of a few but of the many, when factions develop in the religion so deeply that they call eachother unbeleiver (not just believing differently but unbeliever, then perhaps that religion is a cause of God looking to guide mankind again. This could be Christianity or the Baha'i Faith or Islam or Buddhism or any religion - yes the original teachings are themselves sound, but mankind has turned their backs on the religion.

The Baha'i Faith has the exact same pattern as the other religions you mention. The seeds of injustice and oppression are already planted and sprouting. One must consider carefully whethr they want to be part of that continuing system.

What will turn them back?

When will they listen and hear?

In the twinkinling of an eye. The Kingdom of God is all around us. The KOG is not something that is built, but something you enter into when you accept Christ's invitation to follow Him. It is not contained in a building or a religion.

This isn't just wishful thinking or pining - this is the promise of His return, is it not?

You may very well be awake to Christ's message Stephen...I don't know. But being a Baha'i does not assure it. And no, I am not talking about salvation in the hereafter, but being part of the Kingdom that is both now and not yet.

The Hope of His Return is that it will be the consummation of what has already been started with the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. God will come in power and in glory (and no need to point out to me what Baha'u'llah means...a name is just a name).

The Return will not be, as it is in the Baha'i Faith, 'more of the same.'

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I agree with the first part postmaster, but not the second. For me religion is a path that leads me to God, and most emphatically not 'an administratin I wish to support.'

I'm not saying that it's not, I'm saying one of it's functions is an administration.

If we look at Christianity for instance, it started forming well before Jesus Christ, where would Christianity be without the latter prophets, would be of course non existent.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

The Baha'i Faith has the exact same pattern as the other religions you mention. The seeds of injustice and oppression are already planted and sprouting. One must consider carefully whethr they want to be part of that continuing system.

I've been down this path of thought, I don't think the Baha'i faith harvests oppression of any intensional kind. It does however rock what your emotionally comfortable with.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I'm saying that it's not, I'm saying one of it's functions is an administration.

If we look at Christianity for instance, it started forming well before Jesus Christ.

Could you explain more of what you mean?

I've been down this path of thought, I don't think the Baha'i faith harvests oppression of any kind, honestly.

I found that it does...I think it is following a path with the blueprint in place, a blueprint all the more dangerous because it is considered infallible, that can cause much oppression, much like the early Catholic church and as Islam is now. The effects now are small, because the Baha'i Faith is yet small.

The Faith can avoid these same mistakes but so far seems to be taking a route that will only make them more likely.

[wil]

I would say that the _______ Faith lead me back to God and then when it was no longer leading me to God, it was better for me to leave it behind.

goosebumps.

I edited the name since I edited the quote....but I love the sentiment.

This really acknowledges the wonders of interfaith, of allowing folks to grow where ever they are, as that is where they need to be. And when they no longer need to be there you may see them again...goosebumps.

Tis absolutely amazing what might be the impetus to take the first step, and the resulting second step...and who can say the step we are on is the step we continue on?

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Could you explain more of what you mean?

Christianity owes a lot of it's theology to previous religions, one that Christianity hand on heart accepts is that the Judaic theology (of which some is in contradiction to it anyway). But the influenced theology goes much further and older then just Judaism all the way back to Zoroastrian and Greek paganism. Some still regard Christianity superior though.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I found that it does...I think it is following a path with the blueprint in place, a blueprint all the more dangerous because it is considered infallible, that can cause much oppression, much like the early Catholic church and as Islam is now. The effects now are small, because the Baha'i Faith is yet small.

The Faith can avoid these same mistakes but so far seems to be taking a route that will only make them more likely.

Maybe we're scared it's going to happen, personally I don't think it's in the nature of the Baha'i faith to cause oppression.

[Postmaster]

Just want to point out I've been editing my posts to get them right.

[lunamoth]

Maybe we're scared it's going to happen, personally I don't think it's in the nature of the Baha'i faith to cause oppression.

The immutable laws and the highly centralized authority structure which also has no transparency or accountability to its adherants is a system with a large chance for error and abuse, and great oppression. No checks and balances. It foresees becoming a State religion, and then the World religion. It denies vote and voice to anyone who breaks one of its religious laws (including the personal chastity laws, not just things like do not steal, do not kill). If you get married without the permission of your parents, you are not allowed to attend feast or vote in community affairs. Anything written by a Baha'i about the Faith must be approved by the Universal House of Justice...this form of control of media effectively prevents any criticism from the general membership (no checks and balances again).

It does not allow women to serve on the highest governing body, the Universal House of Justice.

It teaches that homosexuality is a spiritual disease.

By its laws it is permissible to burn an arsonist as punishment, and some Baha'is see this as the better alternative to life imprisonment because if they are punished in this life they will not have reprecussions in the next life.

You bet I am uncomfortable with these things.

[wil]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

You bet I am uncomfortable with these things.

I quit looking when they said I'd have to cut my hair....but wow, I had no idea.

[Postmaster]

You make good points in your last post, are any of these laws only found in babism? I wasn't aware I must say.

As for the homosexuality part I agree with the Baha'i faith though.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Christianity owes a lot of it's theology to previous religions, one that Christianity hand on heart accepts is that the Judaic theology (of which some is in contradiction to it anyway). But the influenced theology goes much further and older then just Judaism all the way back to Zoroastrian and Greek paganism. Some still regard Christianity superior though.

This actually sounds a lot closer to the Baha'i view than to the one I hold. Certainly the development of religions is typically influenced by or based upon existing nearby religions, and Christianity is no exception.

I actually agree with your hypothesis that the Baha'i Fatih was probably largely influenced by Manicheism, as well as Zoroastrianism, Islam, Christianity, just as Christianity grew out of Judaism. I think however it is disingenuous and a barrier to real relationship/dialogue to tell other people that they do not understand their own scriptures, that they've got it all wrong and have so from the beginning.

Frankly, it is not in my interest to 'bash' Baha'is at all...but I am not keen with them prosyletizing on the Christianity board.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

You make good points in your last post, are any of these laws only found in babism? I wasn't aware I must say.

No, these laws are Baha'i Laws...found in the Kitab-i-Aqdas (Holy Book of Law). Worth a read.

As for the homosexuality part I agree with the Baha'i faith though.

I know you agree about homosexuality PM, however also know that a gay Baha'i who remains in a homosexual relationship will likely lose administrative rights and until they end the relationship they will not be allowed to attend feast or vote in community affairs.

It was this point that separated my heart from the Baha'i Faith, in spite of all the otherwise good principles it upholds.

I could not teach my kids that homosexuality is a spiritual disease. I imagined how awful it is for Baha'i kids growing up with this message and as they approach puberty realizing that they are different, and the terror and self-loathing that could cause to adolescents.


added: Even if one agrees that homosexuality is a sin, or a disorder, it does not make sense to me to cut someone out of the community becasue of it. We are all broken and in need of healing in one form or another. If God is the Divine Healer, it seems like the better response to love and have compassion for those you deem need healing.

[Postmaster]

I want to say I'm not prosyletizing, you could indeed be right, this is disscussion I'm not trying to convince anyone and I'm open to suggestion which I appreaicte your point of view. I'm not a Baha'i, I have been interested in the religion which you probably know.

As for homosexuality many major world religions reject this way of life.

[wil]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

...a gay Baha'i who remains in a homosexual relationship will likely lose administrative rights and until they end the relationship they will not be allowed to attend feast or vote in community affairs.

It was this point that separated my heart from the Baha'i Faith, in spite of all the otherwise good principles it upholds.

I could not teach my kids that homosexuality is a spiritual disease. I imagined how awful it is for Baha'i kids growing up with this message and as they approach puberty realizing that they are different, and the terror and self-loathing that could cause to adolescents.

Namaste Luna,

I hear you, but what do most denominations of Christianity teach?

It seems that many leave Christianity for much the same reasons you state.