Jesus Died A Natural Death.

[bilalbusy]

Hi there,
My previous post was removed from the Christian forum saying the forum is just for the Christians. The link I gave was important because it contained the material which would be of interest to a lot of Christians. Anyway the impression I get from these forums is that, they can not tolerate anything which can challenge their beliefs. Once again I would like to say that, I do not have any plans to hurt anyone's feelings and if someone take it personally, I am sorry for that. I am posting this again to know if this really hurts anyone's feelings.
I belong to the Ahmadiyya Community in Islam. We beleive that the Jesus survived the cross and died a natural death at the age of around 120. We also believe that the promised Masiah has come. We beleive that as Jesus died a natural death and can not come back, the promised Mesiah is not Jesus physically but a person who has got the attributes of Jesus Christ. We beleive Jesus to be one of the great prophets of God and beleive Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to be final in his teachings.
Bilal

[Abogado del Diablo]

The Gospel of Peter has an interesting account of the death of Jesus. As the crucifixtion is going on (the Jews were doing it with no involvement by the Romans in this Gospel), the eclipse occurs. The Jews, fearful that they would be breaking Levitical law by not completing the execution and burying him before nightfall, poison him with gall and vinegar to kill him more quickly, thus, fullfilling Psalm 69:21. It's a very interesting process tracing this fairly simple story through the canonical gospels.I wrote about it in this post:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...5&postcount=22

[bilalbusy]

The founder of Ahmadiyya community who claimed himself to be the Promised Mesiah wrote a book in about 1890 called "Jesus in India". I recently watched a BBC 4 documentry called "Did Jesus Die?", about which I have discussed in other forums as well. The material of this documentary was all taken from Promised Mesiah "Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's book. You can read the whole book in the following link:
http://www.alislam.org/books/jesus-i.../contents.html

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by bilalbusy

Hi there,
My previous post was removed from the Christian forum saying the forum is just for the Christians. The link I gave was important because it contained the material which would be of interest to a lot of Christians. Anyway the impression I get from these forums is that, they can not tolerate anything which can challenge their beliefs. Once again I would like to say that, I do not have any plans to hurt anyone's feelings and if someone take it personally, I am sorry for that. I am posting this again to know if this really hurts anyone's feelings...

Bilal

Hello Bilabusy,

It isn't a matter of hurting the feelings of others. It is simply that this is the Christianity forum, and you are professing your faith to be that of Islam, which is fine. There is a forum for those who believe in and wish to discuss Islam, just like this forum is for those who wish to discuss Christianity. There are also other forums such as belief and spirituality where multiple faiths are regularly discussed.

This thread is most appropriate in the Islam forum and will be moved.

v/r

Q

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by bilalbusy

The link I gave was important because it contained the material which would be of interest to a lot of Christians. Anyway the impression I get from these forums is that, they can not tolerate anything which can challenge their beliefs.

The removed post was effectively Muslim proselytising - this isn't a forum where we expect people of different faiths to directly challenge one another's beliefs. Instead, differences need to be respected and worked with.

Posting on the Christianity board that you effectively had a truth to shatter Christian beliefs was just plain ignorant and disrespectful to the Christians here.

If you have not yet read them, then I suggest that you read the Code of Conduct to get a better idea of what is and what is not acceptable here:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/...of-conduct.php

[saliman]

The Gospel of Peter has an interesting account of the death of Jesus. As the crucifixtion is going on (the Jews were doing it with no involvement by the Romans in this Gospel), the eclipse occurs. The Jews, fearful that they would be breaking Levitical law by not completing the execution and burying him before nightfall, poison him with gall and vinegar to kill him more quickly, thus, fullfilling Psalm 69:21. It's a very interesting process tracing this fairly simple story through the canonical gospels.I wrote about it in this post:

Asalamu Alekum

Jesus (May Allah Be Pleased With Him) was not crucified.

First let us examine parts of Al Qur'an:

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 "...he will be raised and lifted up....". Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say "....he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up...." Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible's Old Testament what so ever.

Also, "...he will be raised and lifted up...." seems to suggest that Jesus will be picked up right from the cross, or saved right from the cross by Allah Almighty. "raised and lifted" seems to suggest that Jesus will not die, nor get crucified, but rather be raised and lifted by GOD Almighty to Heavens.

It just seems odd to see both words "raised" and "lifted", and not just one of them, in Isaiah 52:13, and yet think that they agree with the fabricated crucifixion story about Jesus in the NT.

Why did GOD Almighty choose to say "raised" and "lifted" in Isaiah 52:13?

The very next verse also refutes the current New Testament:

It appears that Isaiah 52:14 "Just as there were many who were appalled at him - his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness-" further proves Islam's claims about Jesus peace be upon him never got crucified on the cross, because if Jesus was so badly disfigured beyond any human imagination, then this means his physical appearance (face and body) afterwards might have been very confusing to the people. In other words, people might not be able to recognize him, HENCE, THIS MIGHT CAUSE FOR ANOTHER PERSON TO HAVE BEEN PUT ON THE CROSS INSTEAD OF HIM (JESUS).

According to what we have in the New Testament, Jesus was never "disfigured.....beyond human likeness"! Jesus in the New Testament of today was NEVER DISFIGURED!

And certainly, the crucifixion does not cause for the person, NOR DID IT CAUSE FOR JESUS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, to be disfigured beyond any human recognition!

Christians may use the excuse of the Old Testament not being valid ecetera but jesus himself honoured the Old Testament and wanted his christians to follow it

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

Embrace Islam you shall be saved

Be Aware of the Great Seal

(Novus Ordo Seclorem)

For:

[smkolins]

As in the other thread, there is another resolution to the issue of Jesus' crucifiction from Islamic and Christian points of view (I leave the teachings of Ahmadiyya Community aside for my comments) - that the reality, the life, of Jesus did not end with the passing of His body and those who confused the latter with the former were mislead. This point of view is reconsilable to both Islam and Christianity and any changes in theology resulting therefrom are still conformable to the Revelations thereof, whatever they do to the historical understandings among men.

[Dor]

Only Islam challenges that Jesus was not crucified or that he never died. The problem for Islam is that Muhammad lived 600 years after the event of Jesus’ crucifixion. The Muslim view requires "blind faith" to accept since Jesus is said to have been removed from the cross by Allah. The Muslim view based on faith alone cannot be confirmed. It takes substantial faith to believe that Jesus did not die as compared to the fact that everyone dies.
Is the Islamic view of Jesus' crucifixion credible when compared to discoveries of the 20th century?

In 1990, workers found a burial cave from the 1st century inside was 12 ossuaries, the most ornate one had Joseph son of Caiaphas carved on it 2 times showing the importance of the person buried in it. In the N.T. Jesus stood before Caiaphas to be condemned to death, but the bible doesnt mention a first name. However a very important refrence to Caiaphas was made in the writings of Josephus. "Joseph, who was also called Caiaphas, of the high priesthood" Antiquities book 18 chapter 4 paragraph 3.

Both the physical evidence and the written evidence support that Jesus died on the cross as presented in the gospel accounts. In the New Testament, Caiaphas is spoken of in the books of Matthew, Luke, John, and Acts. Joseph Caiaphas served as the high priest in the years 18 to 36 CE, which matches New Testament dating for the crucifixion.

Just as important, the New Testament refers to Pontius Pilate, Roman governor of Judea, who ordered Jesus to be crucified. In 1961, archaeologists found a dedication plaque at the Roman amphitheater in Caesarea, which uses the name of Pontius Pilate, the governor of Judea, in honor of the emperor Tiberius Caesar. Up to 1961, no physical evidence supported the existence of Pontius Pilate, the New Testament character that gave orders for Jesus to be the crucified.

Another archaeological find is the discovery of an ossuary referring to "Alexander, son of Simon of Cyrene. In the Gospel of Mark, we read that the Roman soldiers compelled a passer-by, Simon of Cyrene, the father of Alexander, to carry Jesus’ cross (Mark15:21).

(continued)

[Dor]

Jewish sources (non-Christian) writing the Talmud documented that Jesus was crucified. Despite their negative view of Jesus, their documentation serves to validate Jesus' crucifixion and the prophecy from Gabriel. Talmud, b Sanhedrin43a: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged [or crucified]. Since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.
Josephus wrote about Jesus' brother, James, who was martyred about 62 CE. In addition, recent archaeological discovery of the James ossuary appears to have scientific as well as well as scholarly support that the ossuary may in fact be James, Jesus' brother. Separate from the archaeological evidence, Josephus wrote about both Jesus and James in 93 CE. James was martyred about 62 CE according to Josephus dating of the event. The ossuary has been dated to about 63 CE, which aligns with Josephus' writing about James' martyrdom. Based on Josephus writing about James, the discovery of the James ossuary, and different views by New Testament writers (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul) about James, we have an intriguing story. According to New Testament accounts,James did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Yet, James turned out to be a strong leader among the early Christians. It took an extraordinary event to change James, who died a martyr in 62 CE.
The Roman Historian Tacitus wrote about the Christians about 115-117 CE. Tacitus reports on Jesus as being crucified by Pontius Pilate.
(continue)

[Dor]

It is certain that a human claiming to be the messiah will remain a dead messiah when they die. It is certain that the false messiah will not be successful. Due to this logic, the requirement that the Messiah must die appears to be the divine ordained sign that separates the one and only True Messiah from multitudes of false messiahs.

It seems most incongruent with Islamic doctrine regarding the character of Allah to maintain that Allah would have either needed or chosen to resort to chicanery and mass deception in order to spare the life of Jesus.
If Jesus Christ did not die on the Cross and rise from the dead, there is no salvation from sin. Islam unashamedly rejects these basic truths which comprise the gospel

[InLove]

For what it is worth to anyone reading this thread, I believe that Jesus absolutely died a natural death. He did not have to, but chose to. But what happened after His death is really what everyone is concerned with--and I believe that was supernatural.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Guess I should qualify my last post by saying that, of course, violence played a part in His death. And mercy, or God's timing, perhaps, also played a part (how about the fulfillment of prophecy?), since they did not have to break his legs to speed death. But still, what I mean is that all His body functions ceased as they would naturally for anyone dying under the circumstances of crucifixion. Otherwise, what would be the point in Him dying a physical death (or living as a human, for that matter)? For the benefit of what He taught? Did he not teach about salvation as He offered it?

InPeace,
InLove

[Faithfulservant]

Crucifixion is not a natural death.. its murder.. What they mean by natural death is of something like old age what was it at the age of 120?

[Bandit]

it is hootchie kootchie, he got off the cross after 6 hours then crawled under a rock til he got better, then lived to be 200 years old, but he hid in a cave.

NOT!
Jesus sure does get a lot of attention these days, but for strange reasons.
oh ye of little faith

[saliman]

[QUOTE=Dor]Only Islam challenges that Jesus was not crucified or that he never died. The problem for Islam is that Muhammad lived 600 years after the event of Jesus’ crucifixion. The Muslim view requires "blind faith" to accept since Jesus is said to have been removed from the cross by Allah. The Muslim view based on faith alone cannot be confirmed. It takes substantial faith to believe that Jesus did not die as compared to the fact that everyone dies.
Is the Islamic view of Jesus' crucifixion credible when compared to discoveries of the 20th century?
(continued)[/QUOTE

You have either made a mistake or have told a lie my dear friend in saying that Islam is the only faith that challeges that Jesus was not crucified.

There are many other faiths that also believe that Jesus was man not god and that he died naturally:

• Freemasons (believe thet Jesus was half God but nevertheless believe he died naturally)
• Freemasons also state that the Cathars did not believe in Jesus' Godliness
• Gnostics
• Roslynn Templars
• Knights Templars
• Orthodox Judaism
• Ba'hai
• Early Christians Sects such as:

The Basilidians

The Marcionites

The Valentinusonties

The Carpocratians

The Ophites

Medieval Alchemists

The Mandaeans

The Ebionites

The Manicheans

Arianism

Montanists

• Early Christian people such as:

Clement of Alexandria

(his people called the Cerinthusonites)

Tertullian (160 - 220)

Origen (182-251)

Hippolytus (?180 - 235)

These are some of the faiths that i have found that believe in the fact that Jesus was not God and therefore not crucified. (Although some of these faiths have a belief that Jesus was neither God or Man)

But yet i have proved you wrong. Islam is not the only faith that challenges Jesus' crucifiction.