Jesus died: we're all saved? - Page 3

Blue · 12-17-2004, 08:45 PM

Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary,
============
I agree wholeheartedly, SacredStar, that the reading of these texts is very useful, and a balance to the standard collection and collation, for all thoughtful Christians, and others.

Sacredstar · 12-17-2004, 09:34 PM

Dear Kasper

It depends how you interpret scripture, what scripture you view and whether you embrace the divine feminine and esoteric christianity buried by Rome.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Sacredstar · 12-18-2004, 02:09 PM

Dear Kasper

Roman Christianity, and all its subsequent offshoots, is based on the idea that if you believe in the existence of an historical Jesus you will go to heaven when you die. For the Gnostics, however, Jesus is an everyman figure in an initiation allegory. They taught that if you yourself go through the process of initiation symbolized by the Jesus myth, you would die to your old self and resurrect in a new way. The Greek word we translate as resurrect also means awaken.

For the Gnostics, Christianity was about dying -- the idea of giving up your mortal body and awakening to your immortal essence as the Christ within, the One Consciousness of the Universe. This mystical enlightenment was not something that happened after death, but could happen here and now.

You might be interested to read books by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Blue · 12-18-2004, 02:28 PM

KASPAR questioned:
Is it a valid claim that Christianity is about fear, selfishness, and personal reward not the charity and help of others?
===================================
I think it is a perfectly reasonable and valid claim to make, Kaspar, irrespective of Biblical texts, including the writings of Paul.

The religion does seem to be capable of bearing the accusation that it is dependent upon fear, and exacerbating fear, has a blood sacrifice, for humanity's sake(!), at the heart of its doctrines, and requires blind obedience to its dogmas.
Metaphorically, it does seem to have the drinking and eating of the blood and flesh of the Christ in its major ritual, using wine and bread.
Not only that, it proclaims itself as the 'true' and 'only' pathway to some kind of Salvation.
I always worry when anyone begins to claim they have a 'universal spiritual truth'.

Someone on this site, not a million postings away, has already affirmed that non-believers are destined for Hell, perhaps meaning especially myself?
That is not a very nice way to speak to anyone, let alone all other honest and good people of many various and different faiths.
To additionally claim that a non-believer has no right to post on a thread about 'Christianity' is claiming that this Thread is purely for the believers, the converted. That is a nonsense.

It has been described, with some justification perhaps historically and theologically, as a 'Slave religion and a religion of Slavery'.

Personal salvation is what appears to be on offer to the believer, and the Salvation of humankind seems to be its declared objective... which makes it necessary to proselytise and convert the unbelievers.

Curiously, I do not particularly find any of this kind of thing in the actual few purported words of Jesus of Nazareth... only in the mouths of characters like St. Paul.
It seems more honest to follow the Gnostic views as referred to by SacredStar... but then, Gnosticism also seems to have had peculiar doctrines and aspects too. So much were they against direct proselytising that it was relatively easy for Paul to virtually eliminate such heresy as they represented to him, and odd ideas about procreation made it a virtual certainty that their views would always be lesser than(!) those of Pauline Christianity.

Sacredstar · 12-18-2004, 02:52 PM

Dear Blue

I agree I feel one of the problems is the misundstanding that found its way into original texts and then their translations thereof. Here is my understanding of the The Holy Eurichist.

The food that is eaten, every drink that is drunk, is the consummation of blessings from GOD. Everything in creation is part of GOD, part of everyone. The Holy Eurichist is about honouring everything as being an aspect of GOD, and a blessing. We can bless and honour all in our lives daily.....I feel this was meant to be a very positive affirmation of gratitude and joy. But yet it was tuned into something bizarre!

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Kaspar · 12-18-2004, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Here is my understanding of the The Holy Eurichist.

The food that is eaten, every drink that is drunk, is the consummation of blessings from GOD. Everything in creation is part of GOD, part of everyone. The Holy Eurichist is about honouring everything as being an aspect of GOD, and a blessing. We can bless and honour all in our lives daily.....I feel this was meant to be a very positive affirmation of gratitude and joy. But yet it was tuned into something bizarre!

I have to agree with you eating someone is associated with vampires, warewolfs, Cannibals etc. This is wrong.
Eating is all about taking something good and using it too live. Why do we eat food that tastes nice or is healthy because we know that;
"YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT"
so Obviously if you like Jesus theres no reason why you shouldn't eat it.

Peace and Love

Blue · 12-19-2004, 01:10 AM

Is it not the case that it is ritual?

The symbolism is plainly referred to by yourself SacredStar.
What I question is the need for such a bizarre ritual. The analogy with body and blood seems to me clearly primitive, ritualistic to an extreme, and totally unnecessary, as we are dealing with people's individual conceptions of a God.
Why submit oneself to such a bizarre ritual at all? (Perhaps it is for some kind of personal reassurance... an ongoing form of re-initiation?)

In any case what benefits are there in practical terms in still retaining primitive thinking that any 'food' is provided by a 'God'. If that is so... most of the human race is being ignored by that God at this very moment. If this God is omnipotent, why isn't this God providing?

Food is provided by the actions of nature and the farmers and the workers. Where is God in all of that? It happens without any objective interference from any particular God. The harvest is good or bad according to weather patterns and bacteriological contamination or insectivoral predation... again, a God has nothing observable to do with it.

Spiritual food is also not dependent upon a God... it is only dependent upon the personal validations of an individual in the individual's affective nature and nurture. Is that not the case?

We are left with a primitive symbolical blood ritual that goes well with a religion that has a man dying bloodily upon a cross for our salvation... which is a very curious and odd concept too in all honesty.

Sacredstar · 12-19-2004, 01:24 AM

Dear Blue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue

Is it not the case that it is ritual?
What I question is the need for such a bizarre ritual.

Yes as portrayed and utilised by the church it is ritual and bizarre from my perspective and this is not the way it was meant to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue

In any case what benefits are there in practical terms in still retaining primitive thinking that any 'food' is provided by a 'God'. If that is so... most of the human race is being ignored by that God at this very moment. If this God is omnipotent, why isn't this God providing?

Please don't go literal on me, depends on people's view of GOD! No food can grow without energy and the universal lifeforce. Every flower and plant as a lifeforce and different energy frequencies. There is also enough food in the world for everyone......just that man blocks the access to it not GOD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue

Spiritual food is also not dependent upon a God... it is only dependent upon the personal validations of an individual in the individual's affective nature and nurture. Is that not the case?

Depends on your experience and context of spiritual food. Nature, nurture and environment.

I hope that as clarified where I am coming from. If not....please ask some more.

To me GOD is love and love is GOD, a powerful energy force that is in all creation and everyone.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Sacredstar · 12-19-2004, 01:33 AM

I came across this tonight while looking for some quotes on the veils. \

Isaiah 65:16

That he who blesseth himself in the earth, shall bless himself in the GOD of truth;

So when we bless the food we are also blessing the self when we eat the food. In Reiki we also heal the food and remove any negative energy before eating it.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Blue · 12-19-2004, 01:34 AM

Please don't go literal on me, depends on people's view of GOD! No food can grow without energy and the universal lifeforce. Every flower and plant as a lifeforce and different energy frequencies.

The thing is that, in my opinion, SacredStar, it has nothing to do with any God beyond a personal validation in an individual.

The energy in a seed is just that, energy in a seed. Its genetic structure is made up of selfish genes that seek to perpetuate themselves. You surely would agree that terming this a 'lifeforce' is a trifle dramatic and mystical, when it is simply 'life' the opposite of 'dead'.

Life forms exhibit x, y and z, and a, b and c, qualities as listed in any Biology primer, as opposed to material that doesn't.

Have these 'energy frequencies' you mention been repeatably tested and validated empirically and objectively? I would be interested in any references as to their investigation, that you can supply.

(I'm off for a rest now.
Take care.)

Sacredstar · 12-19-2004, 01:53 AM

Dear Blue

Dr Bach did a lot of the original research last century but you could check out the Flower Essence Producers website in the UK. This approach is far from new, ancient cultures have used similar preparations and Paracelsus a Swiss Alchemist (1493-1541) collected dew from blossoms to treat emotional imbalances in his patients.

Also recommend books by Peter Thompkins and Christopher Bird

Secrets of the Soil and The Secret Life of Plants.

Also William Tiller's work on science, spirituality and consciousness is well worth a view. Valerie Hunt also did 25 years research at UCLA on the energy system in the body and Ihave heard there is a NASA machine in a London clinic where you can step inside and it will provide an analysis from the person's aura of impending disease but I have not managed to track down where it is, although a colleagues patient as visited and was most impressed.

Sorry I digress.

being love

Sacredstar

lunamoth · 12-19-2004, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaspar

Can I ask on this forum because it is lively. If the sole pupose - for a Christian - for doing good is to go to heaven and avoid going to hell?

If so can I bring the skeptisicm that this is somewhat selfish and that this revolves around fear of our worst nightmare that is hell.
Is it a valid claim that Christianity is about fear, selfishness, and personal reward not the charity and help of others?

Just for thought

Dear Kaspar, I think the point is not that one does good works to go to heaven. Doing good is for all us because, in my opinion, if we don't take this as our responsibility we will live in a dog-eat-dog world with little love, peace or beauty. Having said that, I admit I really stuggle with the whole salvation, heaven/hell thing. If there is one thing in Christianity that I reject it is that souls will end up remote from the love of their Creator, regardless of their religion, or lack thereof, here on earth.

About the fear of God. In Isaiah God was bent out of shape and ready to smite the Israelites and pretty much everyone else around them, why? Because the people were not performing their sacrifices properly? No! Because they were not acting with what we might today call common human decency (and just because we call it common this does not mean that we are any more decent today).

Quote:

"The multitude of your sacrifices--what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offering, of rams and the fat of animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats."(Isaiah 1:11)

Then, after a bit more railing against "meaningless offerings" and "evil assemblies" and how God hates the festivals, Sabbaths, and feasts, and even says He will not listen to their prayers, God says this:

Quote:

Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed; Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow."9Isaiah 1:16b-17)

So, it's not about the outer trappings (sacrifices) or the esoteric knowledge (creeds)--those things (they are important) are gifts to us for comfort and courage while we are here in this life. It's about taking care of the helpless, having compassion for one another, being instruments of grace.

In my opinion fear is a part of Christianity, but it is also something that we are meant to pass through and eventually let go of. Often when we say the fear of God it is appropriate to substitute the word awe (of course awe is the root of awful, so perhaps that's not a whole lot better!

). But, I think the fear of God is related to justice. If one desires perfect justice, that instills fear (in me, anyway! and I think I lead a pretty benign life, but I eat meat and drive a car and waste time on the internet). Better to focus on compassion and love.

Christianity has never struck me as being about selfishness! It is the opposite! It is about dying to self, living in Christ. To me that means not being selfish in one's actions. It means detachment from the material world and Ego. I guess you get this from the (incorrect, I think) idea that Christians are only concerned with their own salvation. While this does seem to get a lot of press, so to speak, I think it does not accurately reflect the heart of Christianity.

Personal reward? Hmmm, in apparent contradiction of what I just said, I have to say that yes it is about personal reward. But the reward is in this lifetime, not in the hereafter. The reward is to live a life you can look back on (at any moment) and say "yes, I've done as well as I could." You don't need to be a Christian for this type of reward. It is one path.

Quote:

Show me your ways O LORD, teach me your paths; guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long. (Psalm 25:4-5

Addendum: I think that personal reward, like fear, is something that we pass through and eventually let go of.

peace,

lunamoth · 12-19-2004, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue

Is it not the case that it is ritual?

The symbolism is plainly referred to by yourself SacredStar.
What I question is the need for such a bizarre ritual. The analogy with body and blood seems to me clearly primitive, ritualistic to an extreme, and totally unnecessary, as we are dealing with people's individual conceptions of a God.
Why submit oneself to such a bizarre ritual at all? (Perhaps it is for some kind of personal reassurance... an ongoing form of re-initiation?)

In any case what benefits are there in practical terms in still retaining primitive thinking that any 'food' is provided by a 'God'. If that is so... most of the human race is being ignored by that God at this very moment. If this God is omnipotent, why isn't this God providing?

Food is provided by the actions of nature and the farmers and the workers. Where is God in all of that? It happens without any objective interference from any particular God. The harvest is good or bad according to weather patterns and bacteriological contamination or insectivoral predation... again, a God has nothing observable to do with it.

Spiritual food is also not dependent upon a God... it is only dependent upon the personal validations of an individual in the individual's affective nature and nurture. Is that not the case?

We are left with a primitive symbolical blood ritual that goes well with a religion that has a man dying bloodily upon a cross for our salvation... which is a very curious and odd concept too in all honesty.

First, can we please just start abbreviating "INdividual Affective NAture and nurturE" INANE? Just kidding it's getting late and I'm getting punchy.

I think ritual is necessary to elevate our conciousness above the ordinary, and is there such a thing as a ritual that is not bizarre in this respect? We need ritual to help us move through transitions, die to an old way of being, be born to our new self or new role in life (puberty, marriage, childbirth, old age, death). And we can use ritual to empty ourselves of Self, at least momentarily. Not empty ritual but ritual for emptying.

As far as the symbolism of eating and drinking goes, J. Campbell summarized it thus:

Quote:

...One of the main problems of mythology is reconciling the mind to this brutal precondition of all life, which lives by the killing and eating of lives. You don't kid yourself by eating only vegetables, either, for they, too, are alive. So the essence of life is this eating of itself! Life lives on lives, and the reconciliatin of the human mind and sensibilities to that fundamental fact is one of the functions of some of those very brutal rites in which the ritual consists chiefly of killing--in imitation, as it were, of that first, primoridial crime, out of which arose this temporal world, in which we all participate. (The Power of Myth)

I think there are many layers of meaning in the Eucharist. I know my understanding of it changes as I move through life. Reading D. Crossan's books The Birth of Christianity and Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography gave me two new understandings, that of the simple but elegant beauty of sharing a meal as the central act of love and communion in our lives, and the radical act of eating with outsiders against social convention, breaking boundaries and empowering the powerless. So yes, Blue, food is produced by human hands, through the miracle of photosynthesis and by the grace of thermodynamics. But sharing that food equitably, there it seems we need help from the Divine.

Just a few random thoughts. Apologies!

Ben57 · 12-19-2004, 05:59 AM

I have not read all the replies to this question so I hope I am not repeating something already said or am about to step on someones toes.

Yes Adam gave us death by sinning, Jesus sacrificed not only his life but the life of any family he may have had. His death was an attonment for the sin of Adam but it did not save all men.

The provition for salvation was opened for all me by his death. In this way God took the first step toward us. He provided the means for a way out of sin and death. Next it is up to each one of us to tack hold of that provission. We are all "drowning in sin". The death of Jesus was the life raft despachted for us. we can decide to cliomd in or out of that life raft or we can stay in the water.

Th climb into that life raft there are restictions as to behavour that is acceptble. If you have seen any sea rescue movies you might recall some where the people in the life boats strigle as to take command, and that resulted in unrest in that boat. We must accept the direction of God and stay by them.

It also comes down to the legal question raised by Satan in the Garden of Eden. Did God have the right to tell us what is best for us or can we determin that for ourselves?. To be in that life boat we must beleive that God has the right to direct our lives otherwise there is unrest in the life boat and all in it can be tipped out again.

The Jews were chosen as Gods life boat but were rejected because of their failour to follow his ways. Jesus set the standard for the life boat it is now up to us as individuals to accept those standards and climb aboard or drown.

The hard part is determining just what it is that God requires!!!!

Sacredstar · 12-19-2004, 12:32 PM

Dear ben

yes i recommend you read the thread.

Another quote from Isaiah 65:17

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

And it was written that the Son of Man would send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from one end of heaven to the other. and it was said ‘This generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled.’ The gospel goes on to say that ‘heaven and earth will pass away’ (Matt.XXiv31-35).

The more we learn about the mythology of the bible and its characters, the more new realities are being created. Heaven and earth is indeed passing away because our reality and our understanding of that reality is changing.

We are not mindless people that live in fear of church or its doctrines anymore, as Paul said Christ is within you, Jesus said 'did I not tell you that ye are GODS? Jesus who saved people by healing them also said 'you can do this even better then I'.

Onwards and upwards in oneness with the source.

Sacredstar