Jesus is not God....part 2

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Yep, the ONLY religion that God accepts as pure and unadulterated:

The kind of religion (worship) that God accepts is this: caring for orphans or widows who need help, and keeping yourself free from the world's {evil} influence. This is the kind of religion (worship) that God accepts as pure and good.
James 1:27 (ERV)

very true ,


The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.James 1;27


keeping ourselves without spot from the world can sometimes be a hard job to do ,especially when others influence us to do the opposite , yes our worship should be pure worship with no contamination .



(Revelation 18:4) And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her,(BABYLON THE GREAT) my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.

Yes we have to be careful that we are out of her(Babylon the great)


we also have to be careful that we do not play spiritual adultery.

Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God..... James 4;4

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

very true ,


The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.James 1;27


keeping ourselves without spot from the world can sometimes be a hard job to do ,especially when others influence us to do the opposite , yes our worship should be pure worship with no contamination .



(Revelation 18:4) And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her,(BABYLON THE GREAT) my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues.

Yes we have to be careful that we are out of her(Babylon the great)


we also have to be careful that we do not play spiritual adultery.

Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God..... James 4;4

No. The ONLY religion God accepts as pure is the the one James noted. There is no other religion that is accepted. Not in the whole of the bible. You can't tag addenums onto what I said, like a congressman attaching clauses to a bill for approval before the president...it just gets vetoed.

[mens_sana]

"Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances . . . and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn." — St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim" (The Literal Meaning of Genesis)

Basically St Augustine is saying that "reason" needs to be applied to the interpretation of Scripture and that quoting Scripture to those who do not recognize "The Good Book" as authoritative is not only useless but it also embarrasses the Church.

[bob x]

Hi Ray! Glad you found this place.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mens_sana

"Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances . . . and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn." — St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim" (The Literal Meaning of Genesis)

Basically St Augustine is saying that "reason" needs to be applied to the interpretation of Scripture and that quoting Scripture to those who do not recognize "The Good Book" as authoritative is not only useless but it also embarrasses the Church.

No, what he was saying was that science without faith is lame, and faith without science is blind...what say you?, and welcome to CR.

v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No. The ONLY religion God accepts as pure is the the one James noted. There is no other religion that is accepted. Not in the whole of the bible. You can't tag addenums onto what I said, like a congressman attaching clauses to a bill for approval before the president...it just gets vetoed.

yes keeping oneself without spot from the world , as peter said.


(1 Peter 3:11) but let him turn away from what is bad and do what is good; let him seek peace and pursue it.

Moreover, the fruit of righteousness has its seed sown under peaceful conditions for those who are making peace. James 3;18

[mens_sana]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No, what he was saying was that science without faith is lame, and faith without science is blind...what say you?, and welcome to CR. Q

Sometimes it helps to read what the text says rather than what one interpretes the text as saying according to personal beliefs. In other words, what part of ...

"It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things (scientific observations), claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture." ...

don't you understand?

[dailogue is the best]

hello every body,
As a matter of a fact, the issue of trinity is one of the most crucial issues in Christianity. let s now try to examine this issue under the light of reason and logic.......ok??/
Benedict de Spinoza, one of the most famous philosopher of realigion,is known by his dependence on logic in dealing with the religious scriptures. look at what he said:{ ....in short, i am astonished that anyone should wish to subject reason, the greatest of gifts and a light from on high, to the dead letter which may have been corrupted by human malice; that it should be thought no crime to speak with contempt of mind, the true handwriting of God s Word, calling it corrupt, blind, and lost, while it is further considered the greatest of crimes to say the some of the letter, which is merely the reflection and image of God s Word........what are they afraid of?do they think that faith and religion cant be upheld unless men purposely keep themselves in ignorance, and turn their backs on reason?if they be so, they have bt a timide trust in Scripture} {resource: the philosophy of religion:John A. Nicholson.}
so, let s not have timide trust in Scriptures....let s examine the trinity logically as well as historically......
may be u r wondering what is the relation of history to th trinity....there is a deep relation, actually. if u go back to history, u ll find that the origine of the trinity isnt coming from Jesus, it appeared with the emperor Costantine....so let s first agree that the trinity is an interpretation of the Word, and not a clear teaching....
Jesus is nt God?....well, let s look at the following proofs, then decide:

1. if we believe that God is the father of Jesus, we find ourselves asking the following:

Does really God begat a son? this belief is very shameful, and disgraceful, for begetting is done through sexual experience.how can we believe that? how can we believe that God was involved in a sexual experience with one of His servants? oh...i m sorry to put such questions...bt we v to face, not to escape...the human reason and good sense naturally believe that there is no one like God, that he is the creator of all, and that he has thae supreme ability of doing anything He wants without being involved in the materialisic world of man...So, may be u r wondering how Jesus was born? the answer is simple and clear:if God was able to create Adam without neither a father nor a mother, so it impossible for Him to create Jesus without only a father?>///??? God has the supreme capacity of doing anything He wants....
2. Jesus: the son of God and at the same time God incarnate.
how can it be believed that God has a body like ours. that he eats, drinks, sleeps and does every man s actions which done also by animals......Ahmed Deedat, a comparative religion researcher, presents the following arguments.... Ahmed said that the Bible reveals that tha angels had already named Jesus by that name while he was still in his mother s womb. Deedat keeps wondering: " who was the one named by that name while ha was still in his mother s womb? he is Jesus?and the question in other way is "who was in the womb of Mary:Jesus or God?.....Deedat says: '" imagine there was amidwife besides Mary at the time of his birth,so that midwife was recieving between her hands a baby. thus, how can we believe that this helpless baby was a God.............
.............................i ve to go ....sorry... i l come back

[dailogue is the best]

....I m back....let s continue our discussion.....
Deedat continues presenting more argumentseedat said that the Bible reveals that Jesus was circumcised in his eight day{Luke:2:12}. Deedat wonders:" a God and an operation of circumcision is done to Him?>?????
for those who present Jesus s miricales as signs of his diety, they arent true...why? look at the following, Deedat says that " Jesus s power is borrowed from God, and it is nt his own. in the Bible, we find the Christ himself declares that his miracles are done through God s spirit." i can of mine own self do nothing....John 5:30" "i cast out devils by the Spirit of God.... {Matthew 12:28}....
what is most convincing is that Jesus himself never said" i m God" or " worship me" . HERE WE COME TO THE CENTER OF UR QUESTION......Deedat confidently confirms that there is no sentence in the sixtys six books which they form the Old Testament, wherein we find Jesus says:"i m God" or "worship me"
Thus, the question is how does Christianty says of Jesus s deity?Simply, by means of interpretation. in John 10:30, we find Jesus says: "I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE" .... this expression is misinterpreted bc it was interpreted it out of its context.
Through the context{ John chapter 10,verse 23-30}, Deedat simply shows that Jesus mens nothing by that verse, bt that he and God are one in purpose and goal which is people s remain in faith.

.......................i hope it s clear....i know that this issue was and is still controversial.......bt with discusion... and with view and thw other view, we can get closer to truth....
soory for writing so long........i know it makes one feel bored+ attention is lost...........
...........thank you for your time,......................
good luck

[BlaznFattyz]

If God manifested himself in a burning bush, which moses acknowledged, bowed down and worshiped. So it is with Christ, God manifested himself in the body of Christ, and those that acknowledged it was God speaking to them bowed down and worshiped, and rightly so. Though the body of Jesus was that of a man to die for our sins and to raise himself up again incorruptible, his holy spirit was that of the Father, and Jesus was not created in the sense of you and me having parents or like adam and eve being created from dust, but was sent from heaven, from God himself, being God from everlasting and made it known when he said before Abraham was I am, and who John the Baptist proclaimed as the lamb of God who existed before him.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

If God manifested himself in a burning bush, which moses acknowledged, bowed down and worshiped. So it is with Christ, God manifested himself in the body of Christ, and those that acknowledged it was God speaking to them bowed down and worshiped, and rightly so. Though the body of Jesus was that of a man to die for our sins and to raise himself up again incorruptible, his holy spirit was that of the Father, and Jesus was not created in the sense of you and me having parents or like adam and eve being created from dust, but was sent from heaven, from God himself, being God from everlasting and made it known when he said before Abraham was I am, and who John the Baptist proclaimed as the lamb of God who existed before him.

In the Gospels Jesus spoke to Moses, and Moses spoke to Jesus, and Jesus spoke to God, and God spoke to Jesus, and Jesus worshipped God, and Jesus taught to worship God. Yet from that, you don't claim that Moses was God, or God incarnate. Moses was dead, and yet still living, speaking with Jesus, and yet he was NOT called God. Jesus is dead, and yet still living, and he said if you will to do God's will, you are his brother. Therefore Jesus, like Moses, is a brother. God is God. You can talk with your brother, and you can talk with God, but why do those two get confused?

Lamb of God? John 21:15 ... Jesus saith unto him, "Feed my lambs."
If Jesus were God incarnate, and he saith to Peter, "Feed my lambs", then who defiantly disobeys Jesus and claims he is THE only LAMB? Are you going to feed Jesus? The alleged lamb of himself? A premise is in error, and all of the interpretation that follows it is in error, and the verbal defense of it is in error. The error is this: You are not really claiming that God was in Jesus. You are claiming that God is in nobody else. That error is huge... it is revealing.

[Ahanu]

To me, Jesus is the word of God manifested in the flesh, so that people have an example to follow.

God can be likened to the Sun, the believer to a mirror, and the Holy Spirit to the rays and heat reflecting from the Sun of reality. The Sun that is illuminating the world through the reflection of a spotless mirror, or manifestation, in which acts as an intercessor to God for mankind on earth, is the One being worshipped (John 10:30). So, if Jesus says, "I am God," He tells the truth, because the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world through their Revelation (Kitáb-i-Íqán 196).

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

In the Gospels Jesus spoke to Moses, and Moses spoke to Jesus, and Jesus spoke to God, and God spoke to Jesus, and Jesus worshipped God, and Jesus taught to worship God. Yet from that, you don't claim that Moses was God, or God incarnate. Moses was dead, and yet still living, speaking with Jesus, and yet he was NOT called God. Jesus is dead, and yet still living, and he said if you will to do God's will, you are his brother. Therefore Jesus, like Moses, is a brother. God is God. You can talk with your brother, and you can talk with God, but why do those two get confused?

Lamb of God? John 21:15 ... Jesus saith unto him, "Feed my lambs."
If Jesus were God incarnate, and he saith to Peter, "Feed my lambs", then who defiantly disobeys Jesus and claims he is THE only LAMB? Are you going to feed Jesus? The alleged lamb of himself? A premise is in error, and all of the interpretation that follows it is in error, and the verbal defense of it is in error. The error is this: You are not really claiming that God was in Jesus. You are claiming that God is in nobody else. That error is huge... it is revealing.

moses was a corruptible man who god spoke to, but jesus is the son of god and when he spoke god spoke--he is the Word of God who was manifested in the flesh and raised in glory back to the father. moses delivered the people out of egypt, but jesus delivers from sin and death, because he is life and there is no other name in heaven by which any man can be saved. there is only one saviour, and that is the Lord jesus christ.

[shamsery]

Peace, Mercy and Blessing be on all of you.

As a Muslim I wish you all Eid Mubarak,
As a member of a civilized civil society, Wish Merry X mass to all Christian fellow brothers and sisters.

Jesus =God , something unique proposition from my stand.
We are not programmed or tuned in such a way.
Naturally it is against our convicting and beyond understanding.
I would like to quote a verse from our Holy scripture “The Quran.”

[Quote]Say, “O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you – that we will not worship except Allāh and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allāh." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." Al-Ìmrán 3:64[/quote[
This our stand and we believe in mighty Prophet Jesus (Pbuh) and believe in revelation of The Bible(The Ingeel).
Now here is verses that feel contradictory to me with the above concept of Jesus (Pbuh)

45:5.I am the Lord ; there is no other God,
I will give you the strength you need,
Although you do not know me .

45:6. I do this so that every one
from one end of the world to other
may know that I am the Lord
and that there is no other God.

45:7. I create both light and darkness
I bring both blessing and disaster.
I, the Lord , do all these things.
Isaiah : Good News Bible, Hard copy, page # 708.

45:5: I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
45:6: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah, from The holy Bible, King James version



Looking for comments and clarification.

[mee]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

hello every body,
As a matter of a fact, the issue of trinity is one of the most crucial issues in Christianity. let s now try to examine this issue under the light of reason and logic.......ok??/
Benedict de Spinoza, one of the most famous philosopher of realigion,is known by his dependence on logic in dealing with the religious scriptures. look at what he said:{ ....in short, i am astonished that anyone should wish to subject reason, the greatest of gifts and a light from on high, to the dead letter which may have been corrupted by human malice; that it should be thought no crime to speak with contempt of mind, the true handwriting of God s Word, calling it corrupt, blind, and lost, while it is further considered the greatest of crimes to say the some of the letter, which is merely the reflection and image of God s Word........what are they afraid of?do they think that faith and religion cant be upheld unless men purposely keep themselves in ignorance, and turn their backs on reason?if they be so, they have bt a timide trust in Scripture} {resource: the philosophy of religion:John A. Nicholson.}
so, let s not have timide trust in Scriptures....let s examine the trinity logically as well as historically......
may be u r wondering what is the relation of history to th trinity....there is a deep relation, actually. if u go back to history, u ll find that the origine of the trinity isnt coming from Jesus, it appeared with the emperor Costantine....so let s first agree that the trinity is an interpretation of the Word, and not a clear teaching....
Jesus is nt God?....well, let s look at the following proofs, then decide:

1. if we believe that God is the father of Jesus, we find ourselves asking the following:

Does really God begat a son? this belief is very shameful, and disgraceful, for begetting is done through sexual experience.how can we believe that? how can we believe that God was involved in a sexual experience with one of His servants? oh...i m sorry to put such questions...bt we v to face, not to escape...the human reason and good sense naturally believe that there is no one like God, that he is the creator of all, and that he has thae supreme ability of doing anything He wants without being involved in the materialisic world of man...So, may be u r wondering how Jesus was born? the answer is simple and clear:if God was able to create Adam without neither a father nor a mother, so it impossible for Him to create Jesus without only a father?>///??? God has the supreme capacity of doing anything He wants....
2. Jesus: the son of God and at the same time God incarnate.
how can it be believed that God has a body like ours. that he eats, drinks, sleeps and does every man s actions which done also by animals......Ahmed Deedat, a comparative religion researcher, presents the following arguments.... Ahmed said that the Bible reveals that tha angels had already named Jesus by that name while he was still in his mother s womb. Deedat keeps wondering: " who was the one named by that name while ha was still in his mother s womb? he is Jesus?and the question in other way is "who was in the womb of Mary:Jesus or God?.....Deedat says: '" imagine there was amidwife besides Mary at the time of his birth,so that midwife was recieving between her hands a baby. thus, how can we believe that this helpless baby was a God.............
.............................i ve to go ....sorry... i l come back

the bible does not teach the trinity teaching,

and Jesus is not God and that is the truth .


but many many have been misled by untruths not based on accurate knowledge of the bible .



stick to the bible and we cant go wrong .