Jesus is not God....part 2

[Bruce Michael]

[quote=Quahom1;135335]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

In the book of John and in the book of Revelation, Jesus is called the Word of God. And in the book of John the Word was in the beginning and the Word was God. And in the book of Revelation Jesus' name is changed forever more to the Word of God. Therefore, according to scriptures Mee, Jesus IS GOD.

In chess, that is called Check Mate.

Br.Mee will not like that Josh- because it isn't tasty to him. He is more used to substance predigested by the Watchtower Society.

They teach that Jesus is really the Archangel Michael- forgetting about all the other Archangels.
That is why they deny the Trinity, and that is why they try to prove that Christ Jesus is not God. Fortunately for us Truth has a power all of its own.

But tell us Mee, why do the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that Jehovah directly created only one thing, Michael the Archangel, and that Michael then created all other things?

• Does this not conflict with Daniel 10:13 where Michael is called “one of” the chief princes?

• Does it not conflict with John 1:3 where it says “…without him [Jesus] was not anything made that was made?” Jehovah’s Witnesses do teach that Jesus (Michael) was “made.”

• Does it not also conflict with Isaiah 44:24 where Jehovah’ said, “I am the Lord that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself?”

• Has not this teaching caused the Watchtower to tamper with God’s Word at Colossians 1:16-17 by adding the word “other” four times to their New World Translation so that it says, “… by means of him[Jesus] all other things were created…?”

Up on the Watchtower they are pontificating on what the "faithful slaves" must believe. Believe what you like but "test all things".

Love to All,
Br.Bruce

[Quahom1]

[quote=Bruce Michael;135364]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Br.Mee will not like that Josh- because it isn't tasty to him. He is more used to substance predigested by the Watchtower Society.

They teach that Jesus is really the Archangel Michael- forgetting about all the other Archangels.
That is why they deny the Trinity, and that is why they try to prove that Christ Jesus is not God. Fortunately for us Truth has a power all of its own.

But tell us Mee, why do the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that Jehovah directly created only one thing, Michael the Archangel, and that Michael then created all other things?

• Does this not conflict with Daniel 10:13 where Michael is called “one of” the chief princes?

• Does it not conflict with John 1:3 where it says “…without him [Jesus] was not anything made that was made?” Jehovah’s Witnesses do teach that Jesus (Michael) was “made.”

• Does it not also conflict with Isaiah 44:24 where Jehovah’ said, “I am the Lord that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself?”

• Has not this teaching caused the Watchtower to tamper with God’s Word at Colossians 1:16-17 by adding the word “other” four times to their New World Translation so that it says, “… by means of him[Jesus] all other things were created…?”

Up on the Watchtower they are pontificating on what the "faithful slaves" must believe. Believe what you like but "test all things".

Love to All,
Br.Bruce

He may not like it, but he can't refute what the bible specifically states. Word for word. Hard to bust that nut eh? Check mate still stands...

[bible_reader]

It always makes me feel secure knowing that God could be tempted by the Devil. That Satan could offer God all the nations in the world if he made an act of worship to him.

I wonder who Jesus was praying to while on earth? Was he glorifying himself? Was it the will of Jesus to be on the cross? Or was it God's will?

"And going on a little further he fell on his face and prayed. 'My Father,' he said, 'if it is possible, let this cup pass me by. Nevertheless, let it be as you, not I, would have it.' " (Matthew 26:39)

" Again, a second time, he went away and prayed: 'My Father,' he said, 'if this cup cannot pass by, but I must drink it, your will be done!' " (Matthew 26:42)

Non-Trinitarians like myself have alot more check-mates up our sleeves.

[juantoo3]

Charge of the Light Brigade

Half a league, half a league, Half a league onward, All in the valley of Death Rode the six hundred. "Forward the Light Brigade! Charge for the guns!" he said. Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred.

Forward, the Light Brigade! "Was there a man dismay'd? Not tho' the soldier knew Some one had blunder'd. Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do and die. Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them Volley'd and thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of hell Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare, Flash'd as they turn'd in air Sabring the gunners there, Charging an army, while All the world wonder'd. Plunged in the battery-smoke Right thro' the line they broke; Cossack and Russian Reel'd from the sabre-stroke Shatter'd and sunder'd. Then they rode back, but not, Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon behind them Volley'd and thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, While horse and hero fell, They that had fought so well Came thro' the jaws of Death, Back from the mouth of hell, All that was left of them, Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade? O the wild charge they made! All the world wonder'd. Honour the charge they made! Honour the Light Brigade, Noble six hundred!

- Alfred, Lord Tennyson

It appears I may have been mistaken, there may have been a handful of survivors afterall. Not that that changes my earlier point about poetic interpretation.

[mee]

Originally Posted by bible_reader

ok but God isnt a creation but Jesus is? And Jesus is called God? Hmmm somethings fishy!

Jesus is not God

Godlike One; Divine

Joh 1:1—"and the Word was a god (godlike; divine)"

Gr., καὶ θεὸςη̉̃νὁ λόγος (kai the·os´ en ho lo´gos)

[mee]

Michael’s position, power, and authority made him truly "the archangel," meaning "the chief angel," or "the principal angel." Most fittingly, this lofty position can be applied to none other than Jesus Christ, the Son of God, before and after his life on earth.—1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 12:7-9.

[BlaznFattyz]

angels are not worshiped, they do not judge, they are not called saviour; these are attributes of the Father and Son only. Angels are not called the only begotten Son of God, this is for Christ alone. They did not sit on the throne of God, this is only for the Father and the Son. Before the Word of God, who is also God, came down to earth, being made a little lower than angels so He could taste death and conquer it for our sakes was before all things and created all things, yes even the angels. He sits on the right hand of God as God and all things are subject to him, yes even the angels.

[Bruce Michael]

Is it true worship that is being rendered to Jehovah in Revelation 4:9-11?

9and when the living creatures do give glory, and honour, and thanks, to Him who is sitting upon the throne, who is living to the ages of the ages,

10fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11`Worthy art Thou, O Lord, to receive the glory, and the honour, and the power, because Thou -- Thou didst create the all things, and because of Thy will are they, and they were created.'


Isn’t it the same kind of worship that is being rendered to Jehovah and Jesus in Revelation 5:11-14?



11And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders -- and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands --

12saying with a great voice, `Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing!'

13and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, [is] the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'

14and the four living creatures said, `Amen!' and the twenty-four elders fell down and they bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages.

[mee]

[quote=Bruce Michael;135451]Is it true worship that is being rendered to Jehovah in Revelation 4:9-11?

quote]


The heaven of heavens resounds with praises to Jehovah! John’s description continues: "And whenever the living creatures offer glory and honor and thanksgiving to the one seated upon the throne, the one that lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: ‘You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.’" (Revelation 4:9-11) In all Scripture, this is one of the grandest declarations of homage to Jehovah, our God and Sovereign Lord!


it is only because of Jehovahs will that anything was created .

without Jehovah there would not be his first-born son Jesus,

The 24 elders have the same mental attitude that Jesus displays, even casting their crowns down before Jehovah. It is furthest from their minds to exalt themselves in the presence of God. They humbly recognize that the only purpose of their kingship is to bring honor and glory to him, just as Jesus always does. (Philippians 2:5, 6, 9-11) Submissively, they acknowledge their own inferiority and confess that their rulership is dependent on the sovereignty of Jehovah. Thus, they are in heartfelt harmony with the cherubs and the rest of faithful creation in giving praise and glory to the God who created all things.—Psalm 150:1-6.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Isn’t it the same kind of worship that is being rendered to Jehovah and Jesus in Revelation 5:11-14?


.

And

I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: ‘The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.’" (Revelation 5:11, 12) What an impressive song of praise!

Does this mean that now Jesus has somehow replaced Jehovah God and that all creation has turned to praising him rather than his Father? Far from it! Rather, this song of praise is in harmony with what the apostle Paul wrote: "God exalted [Jesus] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9-11) Jesus is here extolled because of his part in settling the primary issue before all creation—the vindication of Jehovah’s rightful sovereignty. What glory, indeed, this has brought to his Father!

[Bruce Michael]

Is creation of the Universe out of nothing an example of Almighty power in action? Doesn’t John 1:3 say Jesus did this?

—Isn’t someone who exercises almighty power Almighty?

—If the Father delegated such power to another wouldn’t there be two Almightys?

—Is God’s almighty power part of His glory? Will God share His glory with another? (Isaiah 42:8)

"I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Is creation of the Universe out of nothing an example of Almighty power in action? Doesn’t John 1:3 say Jesus did this?

—Isn’t someone who exercises almighty power Almighty?

—If the Father delegated such power to another wouldn’t there be two Almightys?

—Is God’s almighty power part of His glory? Will God share His glory with another? (Isaiah 42:8)

"I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.

Prehuman

Existence. The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58) John 1:1, 2 gives the heavenly name of the one who became Jesus, saying: "In the beginning the Word [Gr., Lo´gos] was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god ["was divine," AT; Mo; or "of divine being," Böhmer; Stage (both German)]. This one was in the beginning with God." Since Jehovah is eternal and had no beginning (Ps 90:2; Re 15:3), the Word’s being with God from "the beginning" must here refer to the beginning of Jehovah’s creative works. This is confirmed by other texts identifying Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation," "the beginning of the creation by God." (Col 1:15; Re 1:1; 3:14) Thus the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God’s first creation, his firstborn Son.
That Jehovah was truly the Father or Life-Giver to this firstborn Son and, hence, that this Son was actually a creature of God is evident from Jesus’ own statements. He pointed to God as the Source of his life, saying, "I live because of the Father." According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Joh 6:56, 57.

[mee]

[quote=Bruce Michael;135485](Isaiah 42:8)

quote]
"I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.



LORD is only a title , but the name of God sums up what his name means HE CAUSES TO BECOME
psalm 83;18
its all in that name .

[juantoo3]

Which name? The Elizabethan English one?

[mee]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Which name? The Elizabethan English one?

the one in the bible ,

That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. KJV psalm 83;18



And they know that Thou -- (Thy name [is] Jehovah -- by Thyself,) [Art] the Most High over all the earth! YOUNGS LITRALTRANSLATION


That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth. DARBY TRANSLATION


That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth. AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION