Interafaith: Comparative religion: world religions

Go Back   Interfaith forums > Religion, Faith, and Theology > Abrahamic Religions > Christianity

Christianity Christian issues and discussions of Christianity.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 09-23-2006, 03:37 PM   #106 (permalink)
"to live is Christ"
 
kenod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 307
kenod is on a distinguished road
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBang
that does not implies that jesus was God. just think it yourself why did jesus not say it himself that he was God or worship me, while this is supposed to be the basis of the our religion. why? only because he wasnt and it was madeup later on purposely.
jesus says John 14/28 for my Father is greater than I.
John 10/29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;
Mathew 12/28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God.
dont you think here jesus was actually telling that the God is somone other than him.
Who Jesus is, is a very important question - with some saying He is a man, and some saying He is God. I believe both sides are right. On earth in a mortal body, Jesus limited Himself to the role of a man because He came to die as our substitute.

Those who truly believed in Him, like Peter and Thomas, received the revelation of who He was (Mat 16:16-17, John 20:28). The Word made flesh.


Jesus did not go around openly calling Himself God or the Son of God, and yet the Sanhedrin Council wanted Him crucified because he made Himself God (The I AM). They knew what He was saying, they just did not believe it.
John 10:33 (KJV)
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

kenod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 04:19 PM   #107 (permalink)
Dor
Bible Thumper
 
Dor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: little town called Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,139
Dor is on a distinguished road
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dor
Just one small question Mee. Exactly how many gods are there?
Don't forget my question Mee.
Dor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 04:55 PM   #108 (permalink)
The Dangerous Dinner
 
Saltmeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,130
Saltmeister is a jewel in the roughSaltmeister is a jewel in the roughSaltmeister is a jewel in the roughSaltmeister is a jewel in the rough
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBang
that does not implies that jesus was God. just think it yourself why did jesus not say it himself that he was God or worship me, while this is supposed to be the basis of the our religion. why? only because he wasnt and it was madeup later on purposely.

jesus says John 14/28 for my Father is greater than I.
John 10/29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;
Mathew 12/28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God.
dont you think here jesus was actually telling that the God is somone other than him.

and also consider these, God isnt joking or telling lies here.
deuteronomy 5/7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
Exudus 20/3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Jesus did, however, say, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me." (found in John 14:6)

Sure, that doesn't necessarily mean "Jesus is God," and nor does Colossians 2:9 and Colossians 1:15 (image of the invisible God).

Nevertheless, what we have are four quotes.

1 - John 1:1
2 - Colossians 1:15
3 - Colossians 2:9
4 - John 14:6

What do they suggest? They seem to imply that "Jesus is the concept" leading to God. That must also mean that God is projecting Himself through Jesus, and that Jesus is in some way revealing God.

In that sense, Jesus "is" God because the meaning of God is being conveyed by him to those around him. God is not being experienced through anything or anyone else except through him. What that would have meant was that God had chosen to localise His interaction with human beings in Jesus. That kind of hints at Colossians 2:9 that the "fullness of the Deity" dwells in bodily form.

God was channelling Himself through Jesus and wanted people to experience him that way. If God projects Himself through Jesus, Jesus takes on the identity of God, even though he is not God materially and in substance.

That's the idea behind Christianity.

So yes, the New Testament does put forward the idea that "Jesus is God." It's just not the way you probably think it works.

When we say that "Jesus is God" we do not necessarily mean "he is the whole God" but "he has the identity of God."

There's a difference between talking about the whole God and the identity of God. What God put in Jesus was His identity. Because God's identity was placed in Christ it is possible to know God personally, because Christ was known personally. God's identity was found in Christ.
Saltmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 05:02 PM   #109 (permalink)
General Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 231
Terrence is on a distinguished road
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

If you dont believe in the Bible, thats one thing. But if you do, its obvious that Jesus is God. Jesus has all the same attributes as the Father and Holy Spirit. He claimed to be God by taking the name of the God of the Old Testiment (Ego Emi) "I am," and qouted it in the present tense. The jewish leaders of that time know what He ment when He said it and wanted to Kill Him for it. If they understood Jesus, why doesnt everyone else? God is ONE being but exist in a truine nature of Father Son and Spirit. The Son (Jesus) is not the father, but He is still God.
Terrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 05:58 PM   #110 (permalink)
BigBang
 
BigBang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13
BigBang is on a distinguished road
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltmeister
Jesus did, however, say, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me." (found in John 14:6)

Sure, that doesn't necessarily mean "Jesus is God," and nor does Colossians 2:9 and Colossians 1:15 (image of the invisible God).

Nevertheless, what we have are four quotes.

1 - John 1:1
2 - Colossians 1:15
3 - Colossians 2:9
4 - John 14:6

What do they suggest? They seem to imply that "Jesus is the concept" leading to God. That must also mean that God is projecting Himself through Jesus, and that Jesus is in some way revealing God.

In that sense, Jesus "is" God because the meaning of God is being conveyed by him to those around him. God is not being experienced through anything or anyone else except through him. What that would have meant was that God had chosen to localise His interaction with human beings in Jesus. That kind of hints at Colossians 2:9 that the "fullness of the Deity" dwells in bodily form.

God was channelling Himself through Jesus and wanted people to experience him that way. If God projects Himself through Jesus, Jesus takes on the identity of God, even though he is not God materially and in substance.

That's the idea behind Christianity.

So yes, the New Testament does put forward the idea that "Jesus is God." It's just not the way you probably think it works.

When we say that "Jesus is God" we do not necessarily mean "he is the whole God" but "he has the identity of God."

There's a difference between talking about the whole God and the identity of God. What God put in Jesus was His identity. Because God's identity was placed in Christ it is possible to know God personally, because Christ was known personally. God's identity was found in Christ.


It is EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING to me when we very conveniently draw conclusions (according to our heart desires) of verses which are defiantly speaking about some other simple fact. While we blindly ignore a direct statement by GOD himself (eg. Exudus 20/3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me) only to project the story we have had since our fathers and it has been imprinted on our minds (true or false whatever, we do not even think about it).

Jesus was defiantly the mightiest and most loved messenger of God but not God himself.
BigBang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 06:31 PM   #111 (permalink)
What was the question?
 
Quahom1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,905
Quahom1 has a spectacular aura aboutQuahom1 has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via Skype™ to Quahom1
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBang

It is EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING to me when we very conveniently draw conclusions (according to our heart desires) of verses which are defiantly speaking about some other simple fact. While we blindly ignore a direct statement by GOD himself (eg. Exudus 20/3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me) only to project the story we have had since our fathers and it has been imprinted on our minds (true or false whatever, we do not even think about it).

Jesus was defiantly the mightiest and most loved messenger of God but not God himself.
Welcome to CR Bigbang.

I'm going to point out some issues, and you decide:

God says, “I am YHWH: that is My Name: and My glory I will not give to another ... For My own sake, even for My own sake, will I do it: for how should My Name be polluted? and I will not give My glory to another.” - Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11.

I believe God is quite specific about sharing with anyone His glory, as you also appear to be saying.

With the above in mind, now read the following passages of Scripture concerning none other than Jesus Christ :
  • 1. “ ... (the wise men) saw the young child (newborn Jesus) with Mary His mother, and fell down, and worshipped Him (JESUS- not His mother!) ... “ MATTHEW 2:11
    2. “And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped Him ...” MATTHEW 8:2
    3. “Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped Him, saying, ‘It is true You are the Son of God.’” MATTHEW 14:33
    4. “And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, ‘All hail.’ And they came and held Him by the feet, and worshipped Him.” MATTHEW 28:9
    5. “And when they saw Him (JESUS), they worshipped Him; but some doubted.” MATTHEW 28:17
    6. “But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped Him.” MARK 5:6
    7. “And it came to pass, while He blessed them, He was parted from them, and carried up into heaven, and they worshipped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy ...” LUKE 24:52
    8. “And he (a ‘sinner’) said, ‘Lord, I believe,’ and he worshipped Him.” JOHN 9:38
    9. “And again, when (The Father) brings in the First-begotten into the world, He says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship Him (JESUS- Psalm 148:2).’” HEBREWS 1:6
    10. “And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, ‘Worthy is the Lamb (JESUS) that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing, And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard, I saying, ‘Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb (JESUS) forever and ever. And the four beasts said, ‘Amen.’ And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped Him that lives forever and ever.” REVELATION 5:12-14

    It seems we have a big problem here. Because the passage above indicates one thing, that according to God is absolutely unacceptable. Jesus Christ is worshipped. God says that He will not share His glory with “another.” Yet those who deny Christ’s Deity must insist that He do just this, because if Jesus is worshipped but is not God Himself, then God has given His glory to “another”, not only without retribution, but with blessing and consent, and not only for a moment or two but for all the ages to see (because the Bible is the word of God).

    Now, I won't say you are wrong. What I wonder, is what do we do with this apparent dillema we have?

    A. The bible is wrong after Deuteronomy.

    B. God had a change of heart, but didn't let man know about it.

    C. The bible is correct because Jesus and God are one and the same.

    Or is there another explaination?

    Once again, welcome to CR.

    v/r

    Q
Quahom1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 06:33 PM   #112 (permalink)
BigBang
 
BigBang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13
BigBang is on a distinguished road
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

And by the way why Moses couldnt be a better candidate for being God. he spoke to God directly (no other prophet ever did that). he gave life to inanimate objects (unlike jesus who could only work with animate origins) etc.

my point of view is that religion is not just stories and superstitions.

When God created the unverse he created logic with it. you can observe logic every where you see. just start thinking and you will not remember a single creative action of God which lacks logic.

God had no logic in becoming a son out of himself and beemed to earth only to get humilited by the humans. nor he would have done so even he would have been recognized as God by humans. for GOD's sake we are talking about the supereme being, the creater of this universe and beyond. can you imgine what that means. maybe not.
BigBang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 06:50 PM   #113 (permalink)
Executive Member
 
Faithfulservant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 2,792
Faithfulservant has a spectacular aura aboutFaithfulservant has a spectacular aura aboutFaithfulservant has a spectacular aura about
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

Jesus was conceived of the Spirit of God.. Moses had earthly parents.. Jesus was born sinless and lived a sinless life. Moses sinned and was born of sin.. thats why he couldnt be a candidate for God. umm abraham spoke to God Noah spoke to God.. Jonah Job Elijah Adam Ezekiel David Daniel Isaac Jacob .. how is it that you think Moses was the only one that had spoke to God?

Jesus raised the dead.. Moses didnt have power of life and death. Jesus turned 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish into enough to feed thousands of people. Hows that for inanimate.

If your going to argue something.. it pays to be a little more learned in it..
Faithfulservant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 06:53 PM   #114 (permalink)
Executive Member
 
BlaznFattyz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,588
BlaznFattyz is on a distinguished road
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

moses did not create the universe. moses is not the messiah. moses is not king of kings. moses is not the judge. moses is not the son of god.
BlaznFattyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 06:59 PM   #115 (permalink)
What was the question?
 
Quahom1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,905
Quahom1 has a spectacular aura aboutQuahom1 has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via Skype™ to Quahom1
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

I speak to God...but I don't think I'm in the running to be God
Quahom1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 07:12 PM   #116 (permalink)
BigBang
 
BigBang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13
BigBang is on a distinguished road
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

thanks quahom.

also i speak to God whithout any claims whatso ever.

but what about the logic ??
BigBang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2006, 08:25 PM   #117 (permalink)
What was the question?
 
Quahom1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,905
Quahom1 has a spectacular aura aboutQuahom1 has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via Skype™ to Quahom1
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBang
thanks quahom.

also i speak to God whithout any claims whatso ever.

but what about the logic ??
Logic. Let's look at the logic of God (from our perspective)...

Quote:
God had no logic in becoming a son out of himself and beemed to earth only to get humilited by the humans. nor he would have done so even he would have been recognized as God by humans. for GOD's sake we are talking about the supereme being, the creater of this universe and beyond. can you imgine what that means. maybe not.
Logic dictates that if God, made man to be a companion (as expressedly pointed out in Genesis), that God would want to be near man (physically, as well as emotionally, and spiritually). Logic also dictates that God would expect man to wish the same (again as pointed out in Genesis).

For a time, this was a fact. Man and God walked together in paradise. Now, this was not a walk of equals by any stretch of the imagination, nor did man complain for anything. But as God brought the animals to man to be named, and as man dutifully named them large and small, God observed His greatest creation, with melancholly. Unlike the animals, man was incomplete for the existence God had placed him within. And man and God could never be intimate like the animals were, not as things stood. Man, was alone with himself, and no equal to be with. The animals were lesser and God was greater...and man was, himself.

So, logically God determined that man should not be alone in this existence. He too should have a "help meet" or help mate. Then logically man would be complete, and the communion between man and God would be right.

God, was not stupid, however. He knew He was about to introduce the element of uncertainty into the equation, between He and man, because with man having an "equal" to focus on, plus God to focus on...logically man tends to flock to those he understands finitely. We see this happening everyday between people of different classes and upbringings. He also knew that the perfection of man was going to take a lot more time...and knew that man would have to, how shall I put this - get used to the "new condition" he found himself in.

This would mean that man, would lose sight of God for a time, and God would have to remove Himself physically from the situation for that time. But, like any good stratestition, He anticipated His re-union with His most prized creation, at a later date, when His creation was more seasoned and "wise".

With me so far? Or should I stop here?

v/r

Q
Quahom1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2006, 12:17 AM   #118 (permalink)
mee
Interfaith Forums
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,363
mee is on a distinguished road
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dor
Don't forget my question Mee.

For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him 1 corinthians 8;5
mee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2006, 01:12 AM   #119 (permalink)
What was the question?
 
Quahom1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,905
Quahom1 has a spectacular aura aboutQuahom1 has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via Skype™ to Quahom1
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by mee

For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him 1 corinthians 8;5
You did not answer Dor's question. Why is that? How many Gods are there? Simple enough question. I don't particularly care for the tract, answer, just yours.

v/r

Q
Quahom1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2006, 03:52 AM   #120 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 26
inhumility is on a distinguished road
Re: Jesus is not God....part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dor
Wish people would just post the whole verse.
1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
http://bibledatabase.net/html/kjv/index.html
http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html
And esword has a version of 1611 KJV for there program at.
http://www.e-sword.net/
Thanks for providing the links.I have also noted your advice to quote a verse fully when quoting.
Thanks again
inhumility is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is Prophecy dead? I, Brian Abrahamic Religions 97 07-01-2011 04:55 PM
The Messiah and the Spirit Ralf Biermann Christianity 22 12-03-2006 02:33 AM
The Jesus Seminar Dave the Web Christianity 7 03-27-2005 04:04 AM
The Quranic Defination of Allah(the all mighty God) Mohsin Islam 6 06-13-2004 12:40 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 ©2008, Crawlability, Inc.